Not logged inAmerican Welding Society Forum
Forum AWS Website Help Search Login
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / What code for railroad braking systems equipment?
- - By OBEWAN (***) Date 02-20-2013 12:19 Edited 02-20-2013 12:39
I am presently bidding/negotiating a contract to write a company quality manual and generate a book of WPS documents for one of the key players in the railroad safety industry.  I want a leg up on the technical requirements before I fly to our first meeting.  I don't have a copy of the AWS Railroad Welding spec, and don't want to buy one unless it is absolutely necessary.

Would AWS D15.1 be appropriate to brake system welding or just railroad cars, locomotives, and big structural items?  I suspect I might end up creating my own welding standard from their collection of drawing notes and/or engineering design criteria.

Update:  I just checked the "free preview" of AWS D15.1 and could only see the table of contents.  The description paragraph does say "railroad components" though - including castings.

I think this code could work for my project. But, there is a list of "applicable railroad specifications" in the appendix that I can not see.  I did not include any expenditures for codes and specs in my bid submittal.  I hope they can provide me with copies of the necessary specs.  And, I not think they are so modern as to have a document download membership at IHS.

I want to know how many specs I will need to acquire.  It will look better if I can arrive at the meeting prepared to discuss and advise THEM in the event they are not up to date or have not done their homework.  With any luck these concerns will all be N/A though.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 02-20-2013 13:58
OBE

I'm sorry I can't help much more than to remind you that your Local AWS section Library should have complete copies of those things you need for reference..
Parent - By OBEWAN (***) Date 02-20-2013 14:58
Thanks for the reminder.  If I need to I will check that out.

But, if it comes to it, it won't kill me to fork over $135.  But, if there are dozens of specs, I would be wanting an IHS logon. But, I am a spoiled crybaby now after working for GE and Exxon.  LOL
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 02-20-2013 14:24
I have a copy you can borrow for a few days Obewan... Come on over.  :lol:

Actually, I may have two copies.  But, it isn't a code I am familiar with and it is at my shop 100 miles away.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By eekpod (****) Date 02-21-2013 12:09
Also check with AREMA.
They have R/R welding requirements in their.
Parent - - By fschweighardt (***) Date 02-21-2013 19:45
Per 4.8 of D15.1:2012
Specific areas of application to locomotives and passenger train vehicles include, but are not limited to the following:
1. Structural components including primary and secondary load-bearing members of the locomotive under-frame, center plate bearings, truck bolsters, draft gear pockets, equipment bases and supports, collision posts, main generators (alternator), traction motor frames, and car body structures.

there are 4 other bullets, but not as informative as the above
Parent - By OBEWAN (***) Date 02-22-2013 02:00
Thanks for the input.

I have now been told the client will supply all necessary specifications for me to do my job, and I will attempt to refrain from trying to tell them how to do their job since they have been in the railroad business longer than myself.

I think we are only talking about braking and safety systems at this point.  I will know a lot more after the plant tour.

But, they do use WPS documents and certify their weldors.
Parent - - By OBEWAN (***) Date 02-26-2013 18:39
I asked customer service, but maybe someone here knows better.

For the PDF code docs, how many copies can be printed?  One?  Or, a few?

I don't think the PDF's can be copied, but would it work to put one copy for everyone on the team to use in a common file folder on a network drive?

I think my client will only want to pay for one copy of D15.1.  But, three engineers, a CAD operator, customer service manager, the shop, the CWI, and myself will all need access.

I hope we don't need to buy three copies or something like that at $136 a copy.  I will be lucky to get my hands on one copy.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-27-2013 04:19
Hello Steve;

If I remember correctly, the braking system on a rail car is air operated. If the pressure is more than 15 psi, ASME could come into play. That is only a supposition on my part. My thought is that AWS welding standards do not usually deal with "high pressure" piping systems.

Structural components could be D15.1, but I have worked several projects dealing with rail car construction where the "Owner" specified AWS D1.1.

Best regards -Al
Parent - - By OBEWAN (***) Date 02-28-2013 12:06
Thanks for the update.

This project is on hold now.  I suggested some people in their own town and that is how they are proceeding.

I did find a section in the D15.1 TOC pointing to welding of air brake piping, and I told the client that that would possibly be the most difficult qual.

These people could not even tell me if they were required to weld to ANY standard at all; only that the customer would cause trouble over weld quality issues on occasion.  They are mostly electrical engineers and software engineers, and most of the welding is for panel box mounting brackets and things like that.

But, if they weld pipe per ASME, I might have fallen on my face.  I think they also want someone with more  railroad experience as well.

The local section chair called me and referred me to the library at our local CC welding school.  They have copies of all AWS documents available for public viewing.

Thanks,

OB
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-28-2013 17:16 Edited 02-28-2013 17:24
Hello Steve;

It is not surprising that the engineers designing the electronics are not familiar with the welding requirements. Their focus is on the electronics. They are less concerned with the nuts and bolts that hold everything together. Their minds are awash with thoughts of diodes, resistors, random access memory, microchips, and relays. Welding electrodes, welding processes, or groove details are not even part of their though process, that is, not until the nightmares begin.

"Owners" buying the equipment usually specify the welding requirements in the purchase order. The owner will specify the welding standards, painting requirements, and the materials of construction, etc. for the specific project being built under that contract. The client, i.e., the designer/manufacturer, has to revamp their systems to comply with the owner's requirements. The bottom line is that even if the client has developed welding procedures for similar jobs in the past, they may not be applicable for the current project.

AWS may have a standard that covers the type of welding involved, but the owner still has the prerogative of selecting the standard that they feel meet their needs. As an example; by selecting AWS D1.1 the WPSs developed may be prequalified, thus no actual testing is required before initiating production. As an owner, it may be decided that prequalification is not acceptable or the materials used may not be prequalified. Thus the owner may elect to specify a different welding standard. Again, it is the prerogative of the owner to do so.

Personally, I like it that way. Their approach keeps me gainfully employed. Usually I get the call after the customer/owner has blown a gasket because the designers are clueless about welding. The client's pain is severe. They seek immediate relief from the nightmares and because the pain is so severe the price of relieving the pain is not high on their list of importance. As one of my clients said to me, “Al, that machine produces more than a million dollars a day of revenue. Your job is to keep it running for the next five years. What you charge and what it cost for the airline ticket that got you here is not important. We simply don’t care what it costs to keep you here if you can keep that machine running for the next five years.”

I want more customers with that attitude. I’ll let the customers that need a rock bottom quote seek their best price from the others in our line of work. The one thing that I learned in my MBA program is that doing business does not mean you have to be the provider with the lowest price. Why work 2000 hours a year for $25/hour if you can work 1000 hours a year at $150/hour? Individuals that sell their services for the lowest price are typically viewed as being less qualified than the individual that charges a higher price. The customer that insists on the lowest cost is usually the customer that demands the most time. In other words, they provide the lowest return on the investment. They are the clients you don’t need because they will dump you like a load of burning coal as soon as someone with a lower price shows up. They do not value the services you provide.

The bottom line ends with a couple of questions. The first question is "Do you have the knowledge and back ground needed to provide the pain relief your prospective client needed?"

The second question, "Did the prospective client tell you you’re pricing was too high or they didn't have confidence you could relieve their pain?"

And the last question, "Who suggested they seek help from a local consultant that may not be as qualified as you are to provide the pain relief they seek?"

Best regards - Al
Parent - By OBEWAN (***) Date 02-28-2013 17:54 Edited 02-28-2013 20:27
They were agreeable to my rate, but my preference was not to get too involved due to travel issues, and their lack of awareness of their own contractual obligations.  No one was on the same page.  My trip report sent to them suggested a review of the customer PO's to search out any welding codes. 

AWS D15.1 does have prequalified procedures, just like D1.1.  Plus, AWS has weld procedures for sale, but I don't know if those would be certified to any particular code since I have never used one in the past.

I suggested a few local CWI's only for their welding operator certifications since they need to do that no matter what before proceeding with any code work.

My end of the project was mostly scoped to be related to the publication of a company quality policy and company welding specification.  If they are a thow it over the fence organization, they could just cite the code in their drawing notes and weld symbols, and thow the code "over the fence" into the shop.  I was not there long enough to get a feel for their corporate culture or how they like to do things.  But, 90% of my employers in the past always developed their own condensed and simplified welding specifications that were based upon the codes.  One of the GE aviation shops in Ohio took the "easy way out" though.  They just said, "weld per AWS D17.1" in the weld symbols and kept copies of D17.1 in their shops.

It is on hold for now, and I am probably off the hook on these issues.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / What code for railroad braking systems equipment?

Powered by mwForum 2.29.2 © 1999-2013 Markus Wichitill