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Up Topic Welding Industry / ASME Codes / Combining 2G + 5G PQRs to write new WPS for 6G position
- - By Nalla (***) Date 02-22-2013 15:38
Dear Experts
Applicable Codes - ASME Sect IX & ASME B31.3
There are 2 PQRs in 2G & 5G positions
Base Material - API 5L X65Q.  / Weld Process - GTAW/SMAW / Both Impact Testted to -29 deg celcius.
For both Root and Hotpass - GTAW and Fill and Cap- SMAW.
Both PWHT treated ( Test Coupon thk 30mm- Mat P-No 1 / Group 2 ).
Can i combine 2G + 5G PQRs and write new WPS for 6G Position
Pls refer respective section in the code.

ASME Sect IX allows combination of weld processess but position?

Client Inspector insist that not possible as the Amps and Volts will differ in 6G position.

But in AWS Code D1.1 Table 4.10 -allows the combination ( just for info)

Thanks
Parent - - By bert lee (**) Date 02-22-2013 16:17 Edited 02-22-2013 16:20
boleh & tak boleh
Parent - By Nalla (***) Date 02-22-2013 17:19
Pls explain
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 02-22-2013 17:18
Nalla,

I'm going to start with a major disclaimer: I haven't welded to ASME in years and currently I don't inspect to it and don't have it in my library.

Now, having said that and probably disqualified myself from any further discussion I would state this:  Looking at it from my perspective (D1.1 which you referenced) If you tested it and/or welder in 6G then you qualify for ALL positions.  But you can't assume that what can be done in 5G and/or 2G will be successful in 6G. 

Now, the important part of your question is to rather ASME will allow you to take those PQR's and write a WPS and then weld in the 6G position.  My instincts tell me 'NO' but I can't really state so dogmatically.

My next comment would be to the objection of the Inspector.  Since when, a good welder using the perameters of a test/PQR/WPS for 5G should be able to use the same Volts and Amps to weld successfully in 6G.  It's not as much a settings issue as it is a skills, procedure, and electrode manipulation issue. 

But, sorry, I can't really give you a code reference.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 02-23-2013 02:43 Edited 02-23-2013 04:42
Nalla,
Sorry, your clients inspector is wrong.
Firstly amps and volts are a non-essential variable in ASME IX (QW 409.8).
Heat input is a Supplementary Essential Variable for Impact Tested Applications but will get to that shortly (QW 409.1).

QW 405.2 Positions states "Vertical Uphill progression (eg. 3G, 5G or 6G position) qualifies for all positions"
Position is a non-essential variable for WPS's unless it is for an impact test application (which you have noted) - then QW 405.2 applies.

So forget about your 2G PQR and write a 6G WPS based on the 5G PQR.

QW 409.1 does not allow an increase in Heat Input (that is why QW 405.2 allows all positions for a vertically qualified weld - vertical is generally always the highest heat input.)
You weld a 2G with a lot faster travel speed than you weld a 5G - the 6G is halfway in between the two so it is logical that your heat input will be less for a 6G than it would for a 5G.

Hope that helps,
Cheers,
Shane

Just out of curiosity - what is your qualified WT for B31.3 ?
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 02-23-2013 04:32
Shane, what about QW-461.9? Also take note of Note 2. How do you interpret this?
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 02-23-2013 04:39
46.00,
QW 461.9 is Performance (Welder) Qualification and Note 2 is Diameter of coupon ????
Not sure what that has to do with PQR/WPSs ?
Cheers,
Shane
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 02-23-2013 04:49
Does a welder qualification not have to follow a WPS?
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 02-23-2013 04:55
I presume that is what Nalla is trying to do - write a WPS for 6G so he can use it for welder qualification.
Cannot think of any other reason why you would want a 6G WPS - don't find too many 45% degree joints in production,
Cheers,
Shane
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 02-23-2013 05:06 Edited 02-23-2013 05:18
6G position is a test position, not a production position, same as all 'X'G positions. How would you qualify a weld that was outside the given criteria as per QW-461.1?

http://www.thefabricator.com/article/arcwelding/welder-training-essentials-positioning-it-right
Parent - By Shane Feder (****) Date 02-23-2013 06:15
46.00,
I haven't a clue what you are talking about and I am quite aware that 6G is not a production position - that is why I stated 45% degree position for production.
You keep talking about welder qualification - this post has nothing to do with welder qualification.

Clients inspector is telling Nalla he can't write a 6G WPS using a 5G PQR (or 2G but I am leaving that one out).
A 6G WPS can be written off a 1G PQR - position is irrelevant unless it is for an impact tested application and as Nalla has performed impact testing on both his PQRs I am "assuming" that is what he requires.
Then, as it is a Supplementary Essential Variable the vertical requirement comes in to play.
A 2G PQR can be used to write a 6G WPS for non impact tested applications.
A 2G PQR cannot be used to write a 6G WPS for impact tested applications.
A 5G PQR can be used to write a 6G WPS for both applications.

Nallas Clients Inspector doesn't have a clue what he is talking about,
Regards,
Shane
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 02-23-2013 06:21
This should have appeared underneath Nallas initial post but for some reason the reply to a particular post does not work.

Nalla,
Why would you waste all the time and money to weld 2 x 30 mm thick coupons, perform numerous mechanical tests x 2 and then PWHT x 2 when they appear to be exactly the same PQRs (apart from position) ?
As I have noted below the 5G PQR qualifies you for all positions - impact tested or not.
Cheers,
Shane
Parent - - By Nalla (***) Date 02-23-2013 22:38
Dear Shane.
In one  of recent BP Angolo FPSO Conversion Project. Tech Spec. insisted on separate separate WPS/PQR required for 2G  and 5G position.
That's why i did it.
Instead of qualifying WPS/PQR in 6G position, i thought of using 2G & 5G PQRs to write 6G WPS. and want to use for production welding
OK i'll use 5G PQR to prepare WPS. Thanks
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 02-24-2013 01:08
Hi Nalla,
It appears your client BP (British Petroleum) has used a combination of ASME IX and EN288-3 / ISO15614 to write the specifications.
BS/EN codes (unlike ASME) require the highest heat input (for impact testing) and the lowest heat input (for hardness testing) to be recorded so that is probably why two coupons (2G - low heat input & 5G - high heat input) are required.
Cheers,
Shane
Parent - By Nalla (***) Date 02-24-2013 09:49
Dear Shane
Thanks
Up Topic Welding Industry / ASME Codes / Combining 2G + 5G PQRs to write new WPS for 6G position

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