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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / check this out
- - By texwelder (***) Date 03-07-2013 01:55 Edited 03-07-2013 02:00
This is a end cap on 14 pipe on the discharge manifold on a blender this cap blew at a 150lbs of pressure. This is your 10 dollar an hour "welder" in these fab shops that build this frac equipment. This cap was butted up flush and had about a 1/8 mig bead on it what a joke and to top it off this this piece of equipment runs over 1,000,000 new.
Parent - By Chris2626 (***) Date 03-07-2013 02:52
Reminds me of a few places I've worked at. This is how those pos get richer by getting those ten an hour welders.
Parent - - By DaveBoyer (*****) Date 03-07-2013 03:01
That weld was only to hold it on 'till the paint dried...
Parent - - By texwelder (***) Date 03-07-2013 03:39
Thats exactly right they were lucky they hadnt started pumping acid yet or it could have been real bad
Parent - By 99205 (***) Date 03-07-2013 04:42
Now ya have to wonder about every weld their shop laid down.
Parent - - By Duke (***) Date 03-07-2013 04:43
So, no inspection on these?
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 03-07-2013 06:30
Had this unit been used in production? It does not look new!
Parent - - By eekpod (****) Date 03-07-2013 11:50
That's the problem with the butt weld symbol (square groove joint) that I have run across.  Most people think the parts are just butted up against each other, without a root opening.
Ive had this happen years ago from hot dip galv, now we always put a small chamfer at a minimum, of course our parts are structural buildings D1.1 not piping.
Parent - By 2006strat (***) Date 03-12-2013 17:05
I agree 100%.   They always ask "you want a gap" or " you want me to bevel it". Hell yea,  if i weld it i make damn sure i feel comfortable standing next to it.  You never know.....
Parent - By texwelder (***) Date 03-07-2013 13:32 Edited 03-07-2013 13:37
Yes its about a year old. What I dont understand is how much more would it really cost to put a weld cap on the end really !!!
Parent - - By texwelder (***) Date 03-07-2013 13:35 Edited 03-07-2013 13:41
Nope no inspection I have seen this so many times I have seen bj services buy brand new cement pumps and the first time they go out to cement the casing in a well they spring leaks all over and to top it off no warranty
Parent - - By Paladin (***) Date 03-07-2013 13:41
Tex,
Do you get to repair it? The back and bottom side looks a little hard to get to.
Floyd
Parent - - By texwelder (***) Date 03-07-2013 13:42 Edited 03-07-2013 13:48
Yes sir I repaired it recessed gthe cap to the inside. But it was still a tight fit with fender 6 inches from it and the frame 3 inches from the back of it they didnt have time to pull the manifold off the frac job was shut down until I got done
Parent - - By high_flex (**) Date 03-07-2013 16:32
Did you fix the undercut @ 9 oclock?

ha ha ha!
Parent - - By texwelder (***) Date 03-07-2013 16:40 Edited 03-07-2013 16:43
No didnt have time the truck was running waiting to leave and that was uphill kinda in a blind spot I could barely see in there. Man your picky :lol:
Parent - - By high_flex (**) Date 03-07-2013 19:50
Must of been your off hand. Right handed

LOL
Parent - By texwelder (***) Date 03-07-2013 22:07
Yeap and had the rod about 2 inches  from my face looking out the corner of my lense with my face m ashed againt the tires:mad:
Parent - By pipetommy (*) Date 03-13-2013 21:56
Need a hand fixing it:cool:
- - By texwelder (***) Date 03-07-2013 13:40
In a sense this is good because its what keeps me busy but what happened to quality control and made in america by americans and where is a person's pride in there work
Parent - - By cddolan74 (**) Date 03-07-2013 15:55
Don't forget there are stupid bosses that say "just weld it", with no instructions. I would question the engineer or managment of this company that did not bother to engineer this joint for the application it was being used in.
Parent - - By texwelder (***) Date 03-07-2013 16:42
Right they just want them out the door so they can get the money
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 03-07-2013 17:09
A butt weld made by a butthead I reckon! Can't hardly blame the guy though. His boss said, "just butt it up against that and run a weld on it, it'll hold, I've been doing this for 30 years".

Your weld looks like the standard, "we need this last week, cant wait". Have done plenty myself that were not perfect or repaired as it should have been(welded cap) but thats just how it is here in the real world. Key is they're up and running again and happy you knocked it out quick.
Parent - By texwelder (***) Date 03-07-2013 17:24
You got it, there was two boss men and and two frac hands breathing down my neck on this one literally, it cost them if they are late starting on pump time some of these big frac jobs are way up in the hundreds of thousands of dollars per job.
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 03-07-2013 20:53
Don't worry about the small stuff and minor details. The lawyers and the courts will straighten it out after it goes "boom!"

I do not want to appear to be casting stones at anyone, but let's look at what is going on here.

There was a weld failure. Questions to ask:
1) Was this unit in service at the time of failure? - Yes
2) Where there any design or shop drawings available?
3) Where the drawings stamped by an Engineer?
4) What welding/fabrication standard was invoked by the drawings?
5) Was the repair technique developed by the manufacturer, Engineer, or welder? The manufacturer should be contacted before a repair is attempted.
6) If the welder devised the repair, was an Engineer involved to review and approve the designed repair?
7) What welding /fabrication code is applicable? While it might not be obvious, nearly anything used on an industrial site is covered by fabrication codes and standards. It is in the contractor’s best interest to determine what code does apply before participating in making the repair.

I ask a lot of questions. Trust me, I'm just getting started, but there is a reason to ask the questions. One of the first questions I would ask is what code is applicable because the code provides the Engineer, the Owner, and the contractor doing the work a firm basis from which to start. While it doesn't indemnify the contractor, the Owner, or the Engineer, it puts everyone on firmer footing should something go horribly wrong sometime in the future.

Few welders are qualified as designers or engineers. The welder takes on the liability of manufacturer or the Engineer when they formulate a repair without their involvement. The welder/contractor is committing a criminal act if the work is done in a state that requires an Engineer to approve the design or the repair. 

No one cares until someone gets hurt. Then the person that said “Just weld it.” slithers off and is nowhere to be found when the plaintiff’s lawyers show up. The welding contractor that did the work could end up working for the injured party for the rest of his life. An insurance policy will not usually provide coverage if it can be shown the work was not performed in accordance with the applicable laws.

There is always a certain amount of risk involved when you are in business. However, it is the business owner’s responsibility to minimize the risk to maximize profit. Taking unnecessary risk is a fool’s game.

Some states, like New York, are hesitant to permit Hydrofracking. Unfortunately, incidents such as this only add fuel to the fire for those that want to stop hydrofracking. The contractor involved isn’t helping the situation by allowing the repair done without following protocol.

One can only imagine what happened to the acid that was spilled. I doubt this contractor was concerned about ensuring the spill was properly cleaned up. It appears their only concern was “get it done so I can get the machine up and running again.” The irresponsible hydrofracking contractor simply makes it more difficult for the responsible contractors in the industry because legislative bodies respond to problems by tightening the legal restrictions.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By texwelder (***) Date 03-07-2013 22:11
Time is money nothing haz. was spilled and if it was believe me they clean it up with a qiuckness theses oilfeild compsnies are so clean now its hard to imagine the money they spend on just being clean and safe but they have to because of lawyers being on two foot centers in this country.
Parent - By ESC300 (**) Date 03-12-2013 02:59
Looks like some of that Superior/Nabors crap.Just weld it up-we got to go!!
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 03-12-2013 03:14
Hey AL guess what.

If you were present at everything we have to do in the field your gasoline would cost $18 bux a gallon.    No offense bro but believe it or not we can pull off small **** like 150 psi welds without your code or your inspection.    Yea I said that and I know how it must fly all over you.....but dammit man, I got faith in that SMAW rod that serious engineers ....engineered for a damm reason.  Lets not try to requalify the wheel here.   If this was the head on a 100k psi boiler well we are talking two different animals then ain't we......150psi is not ****....that is four times braided bubblegum wrappers.   Where does it end.....either a welder worked on it or it fails........thank you very freaking much.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 03-12-2013 04:45 Edited 03-12-2013 04:51
I can't fault the logic until you see the results of a catastrophic failure. The cost in lives, property, and profits can be beyond belief.

I’m sure the boys from BP, Halliburton, and the rest working on the platform in the Gulf a couple of years ago were willing to take risks. They didn’t foresee the potential of the failure that ultimately happened.  I wonder if the same individuals would be so quick to take the same risks today.

I admit that my views have changed considerably since my days behind the welding helmet. I was responsible for my work and I assumed most welders were as good as I was.
As an inspector, I work with firms that fabricate for the offshore oil folks like Chevron, Shell, Mobil, etc.; I also work with the aerospace, shipbuilding, structural steel, and transportation industrial sectors. Generally speaking they are a pretty conservative bunch. I don’t work with the wildcatters and I’m not sure that I would want to. I have seen what can happen when people take shortcuts, bend the rules, and ignore good welding practices.

It is fortunate that most of the materials selected for welded construction are relatively easy to weld. In most cases they are quite forgiving, but as the engineers move toward higher strength alloys the ease of welding is diminished. What was accepted welding practices do not necessarily work for the newer materials.

A portion of my practice involves investigating failures. The type of deficiencies observed are usually violations of what most of us would consider good welding practices and common sense. Some of the root causes we encounter are:
Poor welding skills
Not building to print
Use of the wrong materials
Failure to follow the WPS (if one was available)
Employing welders that are not qualified for the process or position or the material.
Errors in the design assumptions

Where a failure has occurred it is usually a confluence of events that resulted in the failure. One shortcoming by itself would have been survivable, but several deficiencies acting in unison, well, if it didn’t fail I would not have been involved.

So, assuming you do the best job you are capable of doing on any given day, can you say the same for the fellow working beside you? What will be the result if you or the greenhorn working beside you falter by selecting the wrong electrode for the alloy being welded, use insufficient preheat for the alloy being welded, if the electrode wasn’t stored properly, if the joint wasn’t properly prepared, if  the weld wasn’t up to par because the welder was in an awkward position. While any one deficiency probably will not result in catastrophic failure, the outcome could be very different should several events occur simultaneously.

If you do your homework and you have experience doing what you do the chances are nothing will happen. There are inherent risks in everything we do. Whether you work in shipbuilding, petrochemical or refining, pharmaceuticals, etc., there is risk that can be mitigated by providing proper training, teaming the inexperienced workers with experienced workers, providing the proper tools for the job, etc. We even have welding procedures that provides the welder with basic information to minimize the risk that one or more of the deficiencies I listed previously will become a trigger waiting to be pulled. What scares most people is the inexperienced worker/welder that takes on a task that he is ill prepared to do.

Good luck, remember it's a jungle out there.

Al
Parent - By 46.00 (****) Date 03-12-2013 06:33 Edited 03-12-2013 06:35
I would like to post this short CCTV video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Goj7wnmMed0

It was in Mexico, many people died.Some of you will have seen this already! I think it shows what can occur when a piping system fails!

I have been involved in three similar incidents in my life, only one on a scale to match this, and thank god it was a holiday day with next to no one on site!
Parent - - By texwelder (***) Date 03-12-2013 14:29
Thank you tommyjoking well said hands on time is way more valuable than book time :grin:
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 03-12-2013 15:48 Edited 03-13-2013 14:21
Especially if the book doesn't have pictures. :roll:

Let's see, a 14 inch pipe operating at 150 psi, ignoring hammer, surges, etc., the weld is only holding back a total of about 24 000 pounds of force. Each inch of weld length has to resist about 550 pounds of force which doesn't sound like that much, but again we are ignoring fatigue, surges, hammer, thermal cycling, influence of the stress intensifiers in the unfused root (it is a partial joint penetration groove weld with a reinforcing fillet, right?), cevice corrosion, etc. Depending on the applicable code, the allowable stress will differ and the design parameters will differ, but who needs to bother with all that gobbly gook.

If the initial factory weld lasted a year, Tommy's weld should last longer yet! The fault and liability lies with the Owner should anything go boom in the night. That is until the Owner's insurance company looks to cut their losses and come hunting for Tommy. It does not even have to be Tommy's weld that initiates the "big bang." Something totally unrelated could initiate the failure, but Tommy will become one of the defendents in the case. Don't misunderstand my position. I applaud anyone that is willing to do a job and take risk as well as responsibility, but I do want welders to understand what those risks are.

It’s clear you have plenty of experience to go with your welding skills. I always said there are two ways of learning. One, and by far the most popular, is by attending the "School of Hard Knocks," the second and not nearly as popular is attending a school or an apprenticeship where people with more experience and know how to read can transfer a lifetime of experience to a student in a matter of weeks.  

The best education is a combination of classroom training and hands-on experience. Few people are fortunate enough to have both, but those that do usually excel at their profession.

Can you imagine going to a surgeon that learned his trade by trial and error? “I know the liver is here somewhere! If it isn't on the left side, it must be on the right side. Maybe it is up a little higher. What's this slippery little devil? Anyone know what this thing does? It can't be that hard to transplant a liver, I saw them do this operation on U-tube last night!”

Al
Parent - - By texwelder (***) Date 03-13-2013 11:20
I aint knocking school by no means i learned alot there, but not everything can follow your rules thats why these companies put there faith in seasoned hands like myself and many other guys/gals on this forum. a good hand needs three things experiance, pride, and courage.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 03-13-2013 12:31 Edited 03-13-2013 19:32
We're all going to die!:grin:

Sadly Tex, you left out knowledge.

Color me scared as I place my head between the cheeks of my butt and kiss my anus good bye.:eek:

By the way Tex, these are not my rules. The rules are developed by many different organizations that are trying to ensure work is done in a safe manner. ASME, AWS, API, NAVSEA and other organizations such as the NFPA develop codes and standards based on the lessons learned from incidents like the 1947 explosion of the cargo ships Grandcamp and High Flier in Texas City or again in Texas City where in 2005 BP did a smashing job of leveling their refinery. Three Mile Island was accident that could have easily resulted in a calamity of monumental consequences. Another example is the Pepcon plant explosion that was caused when stores of ammonium perchlorate (rocket fuel) caught on fire in 1998 just outside the city limits of Las Vegas. The collapse of the walkway at the Hyatt Regency in 1981 in Kansas City killed scores of people. Each of the incidents results in changes to the codes and regulations that govern the industries involved.

We haven’t had time to completely investigate the recent destruction of the nuclear plants in Japan. I have full confidence there will be changes in how we construct our future nuclear power plants as a result of the lessons we learn from the catastrophic events that were iniated by the tsunami.

The lessons learned by the investigations of these types of calamities are the foundation of our codes.

These are not my codes and standards, they are our codes and standards developed with the intention of preventing accidents that kill people, destroy property, and cause economic disruptions in our daily lives.

Al
Parent - - By texwelder (***) Date 03-14-2013 01:58
You know what dude i will go up against your pencil pushin a$$ in the feild anyday i have seen and done more than they could put in 20 books your rude and i will tell you man and go out in the field and get you some brother.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 03-14-2013 03:16 Edited 03-14-2013 04:00
:grin:

Wesley, my good friend, take a chill pill brother. :eek:

I appreciate the time and effort you expend showing us how "it" is really done in the field. Seriously, without your posts we would have no way to gage how field fixes are performed by the experts of the industry.

I have no doubts you have a bundle of experience that validates your methodology of formulating your field fixes. You show initiative, determination, and grit. Reading your posts and viewing the photographs of the work you do is a reality check of real the world we live in. When I look at your photographs I marvel at the thought process you must go through when developing your repairs. The calculations, the iterations, the research into the properties of the metals you are dealing with, the deep consideration of the consequences of a misstep on your part. I truly appreciate the work you do.

Keep up the good work and please, don't let me discourage you from posting photographs of the work you do. It is: "magic" is the only word that comes to mind.

After all is said and done I can appreciate the European quality control system. After a structure is built, inspected, or repaired, they load test the component. The British navy used to load all the shipyard workers on to the ship that was constructed or repaired and went to sea for trials. If the ship sank, all the yard workers went down with the ship. The Russians make the design engineer and selected construction managers stand under the bridge as it is load tested. Several years ago the engineer in charge of a bridge project was crushed when the bridge failed the load test. I think their methodology should be adopted here in the states.

"Get it done," "good enough," "can't see it from my house" mentalities have pervaded our industry for many years. "We may not get it right the first time, but we'll get it eventually." 

If I'm rude, I don't intend to be. If I see humor in places others don't, I apologize. It must be that I live in an alternate world. Maybe it is just that I don't take myself too seriously and I recognize my viewpoint is not universally shared by everyone.

Al
Parent - - By texwelder (***) Date 03-14-2013 10:45
Okay sorry for over reacting its just you where picking this one apart piece by piece. I understand your point too it is a bad thing what these big fab shops will let out the door but you have to understand also that kind of stuff is what keeps me busy.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 03-14-2013 21:00
I do understand Wesley.

You are doing what you think is best for the customer to get them up and running again. They are looking to save a few dollars, but in doing so they don't give a second thought that you are at risk if something does go wrong.

I guess it is they, your customers, that need to be educated of how things should be properly. You are the person that is in the best position to do that.

Like one of my customers once told me, "I may not like what you have to say, but I can go to the bank with it every time."

Best regards - Al
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / check this out

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