Pictures of 6g 7018 cap

Date 03-24-2013 18:39

When you start your final stringers where are you putting the first one at? You have your pipe on a 45 degree angle, you have your fill passes built up to just below the surface of the pipe where do you put your first cap stringer?

By Chris2626 (***)

Date 03-24-2013 19:22

Shawn I was just practicing going round and round to be honest and practicing my start and stops. They don't look to straight. Now on the 45 I would start my first stringer so half the rod is on the side of the pipe and the other half is in the bevel. I'll have to do one start to finish tonight if I have time later on and will post pictures then of that one.
I just wanted to try going round and round because i'm not that great with a 7018 rod.

Tommy text me and said it doesn't look like i'm steady and he's right where I'm at I'm not to steady. This is just a fixture that I have C-clamped to my 4x8 trailer side rails. Currently working on building a 24x26 garage and once it is complete I'll have me a sturdy table to work off of in there but for now I gotta just make do.

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 03-25-2013 00:11

I used to do that long ago so I didn't have to go thru all of the motions of beveling and filling. A trick I would use is soapstone and a pipe wrap. If you don't have a pipe wrap a tape measure works very well as a make shift pipe wrap. Put a line around it and mark it with the soapstone. You can follow the soapstone or take your grinder and grind a trail in along the soapstone line to get it below the top of the pipe a little. This will simulate putting in a cap pass (sort of) and give you something to follow without the extensive prep work. Running the 7018 stringers on a pipe that does not have the little bit of countersink like a fully beveled pipe, root and fill would have. Running just stringers on the outside of the pipe I always had to run a bit hotter to get it to lay in there instead of piling up, it's just not the same as running the cap pass when your fill is just below the top of the pipe.

By Tommyjoking (****)

Date 03-25-2013 00:58

YEP

By Chris2626 (***)

Date 03-25-2013 03:08 Edited 03-25-2013 03:10

tonights root and cap, still looks like crap but not gonna give up on this.

By Superflux (****)

Date 03-25-2013 12:04

Don't look too bad from the fotos. Keep it up.
The crater looks like it might have a "fish eye" dimple in it which is an indication of the weld not being allowed to cool down sufficiently before that pass was made.
If you are testing, make sure the long seam is blended down to match the I.D. of the pipe.

By Chris2626 (***)

Date 03-25-2013 22:43

Thanks no that dimple I'm not sure what happened but you maybe right I should have waited longer to let it cool, I'll do that on the next go around. I was dragging it and it was running great then it started to open up to much in that spot but the fit was fine, i continued to drag it and that spot didn't fill all the way. A guy told me to not worry and to keep going and finish the root pass. He then told me to lightly hit it with a grinder and then drag the rod back over it at the same amperage and you can push it in and that spot will fill up. This guy told me a QC guy wouldn't like that and would most likely bust you but he said he had a time once on a test that the QC guy wanted to see if he could fix it and he was able to by doing this way and was able to get the job.

Do you think for practice I should sand down the seam on each pipe before I fit them up? would it affect my weld or no?

Thanks
Chris

By Superflux (****)

Date 03-26-2013 13:11

You just never know what (them danged!) QC guys are gonna come up with. I too was given a job after being able to repair undercut on the root of a 2" 304 stainless GTAW test. They said I could "try" to repair it if I wanted, but it never works. I could call it quits and retest in a month. Sometimes you get lucky. Tested in one shop where we made the welders cut and prep their own test plates and pipe. Part of the test was to see if they knew how to actually work with tools.

For practice purposes only, it might not be time efficient to prep the ID of seam penetration. It is highly advisable on test day though.
For cool down, I used to keep an $8 mini hair dryer in my bucket to cool welds down. Also great to stick in your boots and Carhats to warm up in the winter too.

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 03-26-2013 23:36

Bead looks good. Speed up a little bit as you come up on the tack and do not feather it a lot. That should take the "bump" out of it.
Need to work on the cap. Concentrate on rod angle and turn down a little and slow down. Keep the rod square to the pipe. With a 2 pass cap there should be minimal weave with the rod. Let the puddle do its thing and bring it up.

By Chris2626 (***)

Date 03-27-2013 00:30

Hair dryer I like that but down here in Louisiana doesn't get cold enough although this winter has been real nice. For my cap I've just been dragging the rod, i have never done a slight weave but heck I'll give it a try I have nothing to loose.

I have been told by several that with a 6010 5p+++ rod that you don't need to grind your starts and stops but I have been doing it just as I was taught for uphill stick and i would think in a test you would want to correct?

I have been feathering my tack and grinding a slight ramp on each side of the tack but again not sure if this is necessary for downhill but have been doing it anyways. Would you guys ever weld up to your tack and cut them out or just feather them and weld over them? also are yall feathering them so when you travel over them are you wanting to burn through that tack or no?

Thanks
Chris

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 03-27-2013 01:49

You do not want a drag on the cap. The rod needs to be just a little above the surface. It is a light touch.
Forget everything you know about DH bead when you are running a UHLH. Buff the tack, leave the keyhole side alone and just touch the tack start with the grinder. You just want a ramp for the bead to run into and then to hang on to the weld. You want the weld to start or stop just into the tack. DO NOT GRIND THE KEYHOLE SIDE of the tack. If you burn through the tack you can see it and can get a suck back there.
What type of machine are you running on?

By Chris2626 (***)

Date 03-27-2013 12:08

Then this is why I'm getting that dam fish eye and sometimes suck back on the root, I won't grind at all on the keyhole side of the tack, I have seen once a guy was making tacks and when he was just about done making his tack he would slightly drag the rod quickly out of the tack and not leave such a big keyhole which i need to practice more with. I guess what I'm doing is a drag with the 7018 I mean the rod isn't totally stuffed in the puddle it is slightly raised up as I move along.
I'm using my Miller syncrowave 250 dx tig machine to stick weld with, it's pretty smooth, runs kinda hot though from what i can remember from my old sa 200.

Chris

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 03-27-2013 17:53

When I do my tacks I do like Kahunna said, ramp it up. I don't grind all of the tacks at once either. I choose my side to start on and hit the top, bottom and the starting side. I leave the tack a little beefy in the center but have little ramps on either side, thinner towards the ends of the tacks so when you get there you can tie the tack in and have it blend together. If I'm super concerned about the pipe pulling (normally not) I'll quarter the welds so the work against each other but chill pipe, gas pipe hiding in the dirt and other things they are not setting their watch to I'll do one half then the other. Once the first side root is in I'll hit the tack on the opposite side and burn the root in over there. They always say, "Consume the tack" so I tended to get a little carried away starting out and when I ground all four I would hear "ping" as the tack broke on the opposite side.

I grind my tacks, keyhole side and all. I'm a clean freak I guess! I tend to leave a very small keyhole however and will knock just enough off to overlap a little then work my way back into the keyhole. On smaller pipe (2" schedule 40) this does not work out so well at times, a little more finess involved I think. I like to grind it as it gives me a little runoff strip where I can get the arc stable, get into the weld metal then once I hit the keyhole we're rocking.

On your 7018 stringers, I do the same thing, I bury the rod tip in the weld pool. Smaller more controlable arc, concentrates the heat then I can manipulate the pool however I want. Get the ol' girl set right and it's easy peasy. Running the stringers you can whip ahead a tad then back into it, watch the weld pool swell to the size you want, check the sides make sure your toes are tying in. This works for me as I have alway run cooler than all the other guys I've run across. In school I was 10-20 amps cooler than other classmates, odd how they were all still working on their 3g and 4g when I graduated. I'm not one of the "crank her up and let her eat" guys although I have been on a few jobs where that's what they were all about and I adapted to it and made it work.

Practice practice practice. My Uncle told me to go run a dump truck full of welding rod, when I was done I would have an idea on what I was doing. He then told me to go run another dump truck full.

Maybe different from the "norm" but it's what works for me, that's what you have to find, what works for you. Take all of the good tips and tricks and pile them into a hat and find the combination that works for you. I've got a weird weave cap, Tommy watched me one day and said, "what the heck??", it works for me. My instructor in school welded gas pipe for 10 years, when he did his downhill cap it looked like he forgot to take his medicine but it worked for him. I like dragging my uphill root, other whip and pause, tomato, tomatoe. The key is getting your style and having the inspector say, "looks good".

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 03-27-2013 17:54

Darn, I tried not to write another novel.....guess that didn't work out how I planned!! :lol:

By Chris2626 (***)

Date 03-28-2013 01:04 Edited 03-28-2013 01:08

Thanks Shawn see for me on the root pass I have to do a slight whip uphill because dragging it won't tie in the two sides for me. I'm gonna try the very slight in and out for the 70 18 and see how that works for me.

Someone on here told me and I'm not saying he is a liar I would just like to know if you guys do the same in a test is when you run your downhand root pass do you grind it so it is even and all the slag is out or do you just wire wheel it good and run your 7018 or 6010 fill and cap? I'm with ya Shawn I can't sleep at night if I don't grind it and make it look all purdy. I understand maybe in some test they won't let you use a grinder maybe as much but just like to know what yall do after your root pass? I have been grinding and cleaning it up after my up hill or down hill root pass. I'm afraid that the wire won't get all the slag out of there from the 5p++ am I being to anal or what?

The 7016 rod I believe our store does sell them but only in 50 pound cans but I do deliver to a guy that I think he uses them although not sure of the brand but will ask when i see him next time if I can try a few 7016 rods out.

Chris

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 03-28-2013 09:56

I've always ground my root pass. I might leave a hint of wagon track but usually don't leave any. If it's not there then I don't have to worry about any "dirty" welds. I hate to assume that my next pass is going to burn it out.

By Tommyjoking (****)

Date 03-28-2013 21:55

YEA Shawn I am pretty sure your weave is a one of a kind!! :cool:

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 03-28-2013 00:09

If your machine runs hot, turn it down 20 and see what it does. What you want is to be where the old SA 200 was 190 and 35 plus or minus 5. Most of the weldors who passed that open root test were in that range. Also I do not know if you have access to Kobe 7016. Use those for the bead. That is what they are made for. You can fill and cap but the caps never looked good to me.
Always glad to see a welder getting ready for this test.

By Tommyjoking (****)

Date 03-28-2013 00:57 Edited 03-28-2013 01:09

A synchrowave is one of the very few shop machines that burns a rod very well. Not like a DC rig but it does it excellent and super consistent.

Runs kinda hot compared to your SA.....if you feel it is hot they why the heck ain"t you turning it down....That knob does not mean jack crap on ANY machine, just a guideline is all it is.

After reading yall's posts I am a lazy bastage......hell I hardly even look at the puddle at 6 till 4-3....tacks I grind em thin and just step over em and blow them out. I need to get back to working that bead around that pipe....been too long off of it. If I took a serious/tuff test tommorow I would surely blow it. My caps need some "smooth out" practice but it has been a very long time since I sweated my root pass. Any post passing good serious advice around is I reckon what this forum is suppose to be really about......good post bump and all that.

By Chris2626 (***)

Date 03-28-2013 01:06

I do Tommy but sometimes i can't seem to find a happy medium so I then say screw it and run it hot

By Tommyjoking (****)

Date 03-28-2013 01:17 Edited 03-28-2013 01:25

Chris the run it hot...cranker er up and burn it in there sounds great talking about it....it is always said by somebody who is not taking the test or holding the liability on the welds. There are cases in the field where you got to get it hotter to get meat where it should be....but practice welds? Run the rods at temps that they run well for you and are in YOUR control within there range specs....pipe is hard enough, run the arc at a pace you are comfortable with......when you get bored with it then you can start adding heat and cranking rnd and smoking it out.

BUT take it all with a grain of salt from me....I am just a welder that welds pipe every once in a while...I am not a PIPE welder. Most of the folks posting here work with it daily or close to it.

By Chris2626 (***)

Date 03-28-2013 01:24

Ok Tommy, I'll take that advice and not try and rush it so much, I'm my worst critic I am never satisfied with my welds and am always pushing myself, I'll take a step back and run less heat and learn to control it first.

By Tommyjoking (****)

Date 03-28-2013 01:32 Edited 03-28-2013 21:48

what Shawn said about the soapstone and grinder ...making rings around a length of pipe. That is how I practice too....way before I start running a beveled joint. By that time I got running round down and I am focused on the root and gap....to make it run easy and smoothly....consistency that is all I want. If I get consistency I can adjust that where I need it. Fill passes never concerned me much...either it is clean or it is not.

It takes a LOT of time to get slick on small pipe.....the big stuff looks impressive but it is EASY.....crank around a bunch of two or three inch....it is hard to be really truly good at it. I wish I was. I have been doing 12-24-36 inch stuff is about all I got in the last two years....I got back to some small pipe and it is like trying it for the first time! I am all ears on tips from you pipe gurus on making the small stuff easier!

Let me just step out of the way because I think the posters on here can steer ya way better then me. Call me up when your laying some tig roots or something.

By Chris2626 (***)

Date 03-28-2013 02:49

Thanks Tommy and you don't have to step away I'm all ears on everyones comments, I do have a question about a tig root technique but I'll give ya a call some time this weekend and ask ya about that one.

By DaveBoyer (*****)

Date 03-28-2013 03:20

On My Syncrowave 351 the AC Balance control knob functions as an arc control when DC stick welding [don't know if it helps, never messed with it].

The manual for Your machine doesn't mention this feature, might be worth asking Your Miller rep about it.

By Chris2626 (***)

Date 03-28-2013 12:05 Edited 03-28-2013 12:11

no Dave my machine doesn't have a ac balance control knob feature on it and I don't know if one could be added or not. Wait a minute I do have a dig feature for when it is in ac mode and never really thought to see if it would work on the stick. I'll have to give it a try this afternoon and see if it does anything.

By Stringer (***)

Date 03-29-2013 03:00

Interpass temperatures. In the late seventies I was testing welders for the plants in Pasadena and they would dislike intensely the 1/8 gap 1/8 land uphill test because that's not what they actually did in the pipe rack but they would manage the 6" sch 80 well enough. And then they would not manage their interpass temps on a 2" sch 40 and it would catch them a bit off-guard, if you will. Even a 3/32 6010 can overheat a light pipe if one gets impatient.

By Chris2626 (***)

Date 03-29-2013 03:01

Dave I tried it tonight that dig feature is just for when it is on a tig.

By Chris2626 (***)

Date 04-01-2013 00:11 Edited 04-01-2013 00:19

More pictures of todays 6g cap and root, lightbulb seem to go off today and looks a little better then the last few runs. This was all uphill, the slight whip motion that someone told me to do on the cap really seems to make the 7018 lay down a h*ll of a lot better for me today. There is one spot in the root that I would question but the rest did really well, like i just told Tommy a little while ago on the phone was this was maybe the first time that I had the fit just right that I pretty much went almost all the way around the pipe without having to whip the root. Pretty much just pushed it in there and pushed it all uphill. Welded very nice.

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 04-01-2013 01:45

Looking better Chris, what size pipe you running again?

By Chris2626 (***)

Date 04-01-2013 02:01

Same stuff, 3 inch schedule 40, I've got some schedule 40 4 inch but just hadn't really had time to call my dads friend up to go cut it on his bandsaw and plus 3 inch is faster to bevel by hand anyway. I need to try and make a setup like Tommy has made for beveling pipe faster.

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 04-01-2013 02:12

You can do a single pass weave on 3" unless you just want to practice stringers. The 3" will take a weave quite well as well as a 1/8" 6010 root, stick with the 3/32's on the fill and cap though. You get below 3", say a 2" schedule 40 and you'll want to go with 3/32's and a stringer caps pass that serves double duty. It's a fill and cap pass all in one as the pipe wall is so thin.

By Chris2626 (***)

Date 04-01-2013 02:50

I need to practice stringers but next go at it I'll try and do a single pass 7018, I just don't know if I can get it to fill all the way meaning the weld may look droopy.

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 04-01-2013 13:54

Add 10 on your cap. The bead looks good. Making that wedding ring will come with time. I would buy the weld for testing. Get you some 2 inch sch 80 to see how you do on smaller bore. Most welding suppliers can get you the Kobe in 10 pound cans. By the time you burn 10 pounds you are going to have it down. Again, the trick on the bead is keep it low and slow. These welds are not used on cross country pipelines and when you are working for some company that wants the welder qualified to this are not expecting you to crank out twenty 8 inch welds a day. You fit and weld 6 of these babies a day in 8 inch sch 80 and they are all clean you have had a good day.

By Tommyjoking (****)

Date 04-01-2013 15:36

It is looking a lot better. Your doing that on 3"? Doing good then. Keep it up.

By Chris2626 (***)

Date 04-02-2013 01:16

Thanks dbigkahunna I'll look into seeing if I can get ahold of some 2 inch schedule 80. My dads friend has some I think it is schedule 120 and it looks like it's 2 inch. He said a 20 foot stick of it was around 600 but he wasn't welding it for a test he was building a handrail out of it. I've been tempted to ask if I could buy some from him but i don't know that maybe not something you want to practice on but to actually test on.

I was welding my cap at I think 80 amps with a 3/32 rod so 90 amps i'm gonna have to really move and the rod will end up turning orange when I finish so I don't know this thing seems to weld pretty dam hot to me but I'll give it a go for more heat.

Let me ask you what amperage would you weld a root at uphill on this 3 inch schedule 40 pipe I'm welding here?

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 04-02-2013 11:52

When I run 3" and larger using the 1/8" 6010 and 3/32" 7018 I set the machine on one setting where I can run both without changing the machine. Can't tell you want amperage it is, setting on the machine yes but the amperage is somewhere around, just right. On 2" schedule 40 I run the 3/32" 6010 and 3/32" 7018. Other machines I have used, one in particular was an old air cooled hobart. Welded hundreds of schedule 40 joints with it. Every morning I would come in, fill it with gas and set it at 100 amps on the dial. Would weld all day long over 150 feet away and never touch the machine except for lunch and quitting time to shut it off. Was using the 1/8 6010/3/32 7018 combo.

By Chris2626 (***)

Date 04-02-2013 12:07

Thats what someone else was telling me he was doing, you're probably not gonna believe what I'm running the root at which is about 68 amp with a 1/8 6010 5p++++ rod gap at about 3/32. I have tried running hotter and i can't it's to dam hot I blow through to much and make a mess. This machine has the digital read out so the amp are probably real close to what it's suppose to be at. I could try and match the heat of root and cap but I'd have to close the gap even more.

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 04-02-2013 14:12

I always say 3/32" land and gap but to be quite honest I don't even measure or look to hard. It's even around the face of the land, gap is even around the circumference. I grind the land until my mind says, "looks good", set the gap on the pipe until my mind says, "looks good". My helper has set the gap a few times while I was in a hurry and I glance and say, "yeah, that'll work" then go burn it in. On my tests I'll slow down and look a little harder but nickle, dime, 3/32" etc., is out the window. This might be why my machine is set where it is at (I'm guessing 90-100amps??) just right for the root pass. You do it enough and you can look at the land, gap and you'll know that it's a tight gap, need to crank her up a little more to burn thru, wider gap, smaller land, turn it back down. Not bragging or claiming to be a golden arm, far from it. Experience however and paying attention to every detail of your joint and you'll remember things. Sometimes a little tighter gap is just a matter of how you run the rod, how you manipulate it, slow down, speed up, arc length and so on. I work with a lot of different "pipefitters" and their grinding skills and pipefitting abilities tend to be, shaky at best at times.

By Chris2626 (***)

Date 04-03-2013 02:05

I know what you mean I've gotten to the point it maybe close to a 3/32 land and gap maybe a little tighter then 3/32 but I know how much to grind and when to say yeah that will work for me. One thing that is really wild with this dam machine is I go up literally 1 amp and it makes it that much hotter while other older beat up machines I'd have to go 5 more or so amp to get what I want out of it but not this thing so far.. Tommy wasn't lying this machine really does weld good. Gotta make me one of them nifty little home made bevelers he sent me a picture of, i think arthritis is kicking in on me beveling this pipe by hand :grin:

By dbigkahunna (****)

Date 04-03-2013 13:30

When you are putting a bead in open root with LH the voltage and amperage becomes relative. You want it set where you do not have to mess with it on the whole weld. You have to get through your mind, low and slow. Racehorsing LH will not turn out well. From the pictures you have a good handle on it. if you can run from bottom to top and not change the heat, you have it down. The problem with open root bead with LH usually comes with not putting in enough gap.
On caps, if the slag is releasing with just a tap with your file, the heat is set correct. Pretty much the same with any pass using LH. If the slag does not release from the weld, your heat is wrong.
There seems to be two conversations going on here with using 6010 and capping with LH instead of just open root with LH. Using 6010 rods UH is another thing. Gap needs to be tighter and if you are using a drag technique, the heat needs to be much higher than with the LH. On heavy wall pipe using the UH with 6010 required a stepping technique. Dragging it in winds up having to turn down as you come up to the top of the top quarter. If you are not paying attention you can blow out the top.
Try to get some sch 80 2 inch. That is what you will be testing on as the sch 120 requires different heat than the sch 80.

By Chris2626 (***)

Date 04-03-2013 23:25

What I have been doing is 6010 5p+++ downhill and up hill bead on 3 inch schedule 40 then I have been running 7018 fill cap all up hill that is all I have been doing here. Haven't even tried 6010 all the way out or 7018 all the way out. Just want to clear any confusion up here.
I know what you mean I have had it times when the slag will peel itself right off and have been told in the past that if I can do that it is welding good so I take it that person was telling the truth.

By Sourdough (****)

Date 04-03-2013 14:47

Looks to me like you should move fast side to side on the bottom, and turn your heat down a little on the sides.

By makeithot (***)

Date 04-04-2013 04:21 Edited 04-04-2013 04:25

put your cap in with 3/32 then step up to 1/8' helps to learn undercut and bead control, how much heat the pipe can take etc