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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Need engineer
- - By Robert48 (**) Date 03-26-2013 15:45 Edited 03-26-2013 16:03
I am in the process of building a product to use in the oil rig moving industry. I have made a couple of these in the past for the company I work for. We have used them and abused them to the max. Now I have the opportunity to build some on my own to sell to other companies. Since these will be used for various oil companies I know they are going to want capacities stamped on them. I am no engineer but I am very confident that this simple design is adequate for way more than it is going to be used for. I have had things engineered before and it has turned into an ordeal. We had a guy design some man baskets for us one time. We took a factory made one to his office to show what we wanted to build. The one he designed weighed twice as much and was rated for half as much. I need someone that has common sense which I know is going to be hard to find.  I can give more info later. Just wanted to get some opinions. Thanks in advance.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 03-26-2013 16:29
As per your man basket example of engineering problems, just because it was factory made does not mean it was rated for OSHA approved capacities.  And, even if it was when originally built, the standards may have changed.  There are many companies that make and market particular items but when proper research is done they are not rated by the correct and applicable organization for safety, strength, approved features, etc.

I say that to say this, be careful about how you judge engineering.  They are often working off of incomplete information and/or applicable codes and quite possibly do not fully understand your application. 

You need to start by coming up with a written project scope.  You cannot be too descriptive.  Don't try to leave things out in order to be cheap and not over involve your chosen engineer.  This is a case of 'the more information the better'. 

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By Robert48 (**) Date 03-29-2013 02:44 Edited 03-29-2013 03:09
Sorry for the delay. We just had a baby. I will clarify the man basket ordeal. The company I worked for was in the market for about ten new ones and they are extremely expensive. We took the guy a store bought one to give him an idea of what we wanted. After he came up with the drawing he called and made sure all the welding was to be done by qualified welders ( also noted on the drawings). After a few days and several thousand dollars he sent us the drawings. When I reviewed them I saw that he had went with 5/16 wall tubing instead of the 3/16 the factory one used. No big deal. We use fairly large cranes so a little extra weight is not a problem. The problem is that the information he gave us to have stamped on the tag was as follows Weight: 1000# Capacity: 500# NET Weight 25000# along with a serial number. I called him to make sure that the 25000# was a typo. He promptly told me that it was right and the crane operator would know what it ment. I told him I am an NCCO certified crane operator and know what it means. It means I have to treat that basket as if it weighs 25000# even if I know it does not. As per the new OSHA standards (ASME b30.5) I would have to use rigging that is good for 5x the NET weight stamped on the basket (125000#), and not exceed 50% of the cranes capacity at a given radius. So in short you could only pick it up with a 250 ton crane. After I explained about the crane side of it he would not budge. So we have a very expensive stack of papers and factory built baskets.

       This is what I want to avoid. That company has plenty of money for screw ups like that, I dont. I understand fully the issue of liability and am willing to do it right. I already have one of these built and really want some one to look at it and tell me what I need to do for it to be right or maybe tell me I am wasting money over building it.
Parent - By Tyrone (***) Date 03-27-2013 11:07
Hey Robert,
When it comes to safety, the product/part will always be "over designed".  To use your man basket as an example, here's a couple of the factors that were probably considered:
The weight of heaviest person that might use the basket.  (times 2 if there's a chance two people might use it) + The maximium weight of equipment that a person might put in basket. Add a safety factor for any unforseen factors.  Add another factor for fatigue (especially if aluminum is selected).  I've seen safety factors as high as 20X (crane industry). 

I agree there are lots of over designed monstrosities out there, but I understand the reasoning behind them.

I'm sure you can get someone to design and rate the product at the low end, but you will end up assuming some responsibility if things go bad and fingers start pointing.  

My 2 cents
Tyrone
Parent - - By Cactusthewelder (*****) Date 03-27-2013 12:10
Call Dr. Lee Guice @ 903-757-4701. He is in Longveiw Texas. He is one of the TOP Engineers in the Oilfield and ALL ofthe Majors know and recognize him. He has designed, Patented and built many items for the Oilfield thatare in wide use today. Tell him Cactus sent you
Parent - By Robert48 (**) Date 03-29-2013 02:59
Thanks I will give him a call.
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 03-27-2013 17:01
I've got an engineer I use up here and had him do the stuff for our bridge project. Looking at the steel being used for what it is doing you stand back and say what the heck? But when you consider that the river was 40 feet over it's normal height, flowing over the bridge and thousands of gallons of water floating and beating the pipe under the bridge you look at the steel again and say, that should take care of it.

We were considering ways to move our walkboards, aluminum to use and he called out using "T" aluminum, which nobody seems to have.....anywhere. Anyhow, talking to him about how to make our own walkboards and other things(for about 2-3 hours) and you can see where the engineer is coming from, mathematically when you consider loads and the forces that will act upon whatever it is your making.

I understand what your saying about "complications" as our bridge gig has been ongoing for over a year. We were just able to get started on the first phase  this year. All of last year was engineering, measuring, TDOT approval and so on. Simple straighten and insulate the pipe at first went to $6000 in steel, 3 stage paint, removal of illegally welded brackets on the bridge (no, not something I did), brackets on the abutments to retain the pipe, it's a huge job. Then again on the engineers side he's designing it to withstand what has happened or what could possibly happen and in the end, like your CWI's he has to put his stamp on it. As welders we can design, build things all day long and usually build it in what I like to call "Farm built". We all know farmers, if a 1-1/2" pipe is good then a 2-1/2" will be better. Unfortunately if something we design and build fails, bye bye homestead and hopefully it don't kill somebody where we end up in the pokey with a roomate named bubba that has been in lockup for 15 years.

Getting an engineer stamp and design just means you get to raise the cost on the final product. The engineer got involved with our bridge and it went from a 3-4 week job to several months of work, all paid by the hour, thank you Mr. Engineer.

Good luck on your quest!
Parent - By Len Andersen (***) Date 03-28-2013 17:51
Ladies and Gentlemen,       
        Am a graduate engineer been in Texas and other oil fields. Bet y --- and ability to make a living on what you are selling me as a "trailer"  for highway use?  Texas P. E. stamp on drawings and I would see if there is any insurance concerns. I hope this is helpful.                     
Sincerely
Len Andersen weld@spemail.org
               914-536-7101   / 212-839-6599     8-4 New York Time , 4042 FAX , Co-worker 6381 / 914-237-7689 (H)
POB 1529 / NYC 10116-1529 ( $1100 per year Caller Box GPO NYC / Most Secure Service At Largest Post Office
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 03-28-2013 17:58
The engineer has to consider the worst case scenario, and then design it so it is idiot proof. The sad part is you can never design it to be “damn idiot” proof.

Al
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 03-28-2013 19:39
I was actually thinking the same thing Al, wrote it in my post and everything then deleted it. Just because it's designed for this certain use when it gets out on the jobsite somebody will say, "Aw heck, let use this". Kinda like my cresent wrench/hammer.....:grin:
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 03-28-2013 20:33
Safety first.
Beat only with the proper sized wrench.
And after you break the tip off a knife blade, it is then a much better screwdriver...
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 03-28-2013 22:33
Where's the like button!! :lol::lol:
Parent - By OBEWAN (***) Date 03-28-2013 22:34
In the good old days, it was a win win.  Craftsman always replaced broken tools.

I have one of those broken knife screwdrivers.  For some jobs it is the only one that will work.  It is a great tool.  I especially like the wide blade.  And, my uncle broke it.  It was in a hand me down tool box that I got before I went to welding school.  It was used on the WWII bomber fleet that dropped the big one on Japan.  He was a flight engineer and flight line mechanic for the B25's and Flying Fortresses.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 03-28-2013 21:20
Al,

IMHO, there is no such animal as idiot proof. All attempts to make something idiot proof only result in redefining what is an idiot.

Regards,
Gerald
Parent - - By JTMcC (***) Date 03-28-2013 23:17
Just my take on it, but every hour spent picking "good" engineering saves hundreds of hours in fabrication/consumable use.
Good engineering, to me, is someone with a very specific understanding of service conditions, a understanding of your current capabilities (does no good to specify large scale sub arc/robotic if your work is in the windswept field off of 1 ton trucks in the mud for example) and willing to work with you thru the design process.
There's a lot more poor engineering available than there is good ones. Poor engineers are always willing to pontificate on subjects they have no experience with (and have certainly never paid for!), good ones don't. They usually charge the same : )
Good engineering is worth it's weight in platinum. Bad engineering makes everybody's life hard. I'd rather spend 3 weeks of my life finding the right one than pay the consequences down the road.
You can pick wrong, and pay out of your own pocket for the (often unsuccessfull) education of a PE math wizz, who doesn't understand the specific field you work in.
Good engineers often take home brewed designs and make them cheaper thru less material and less weld. Excess weld is probably the most expensive item in the industry.
Some stamped drawings are useful for starting a bonfire, some are money making machines.
It can be difficult to find the right man/woman willing to take on relatively small projects but it's worth it in my experience. I have no problem working over long distances with a sound engineer so it really doesn't matter where they are located. If they are willing to respond to your phone calls and email, it's all happy. And if they can address mid stream changes on the spot, all the mo better. I've called some very sharp engineers from the wind/snow swept prairie and had official changes made within 3 minutes, the documentation following via email. That saves some maaaajor dollars.
I'll add that in my experience, the older the engineer the wiser the engineer. Young guys tend to rely on what they lernt in school (?!), old dudes tend to have real world experience.
The biggest thing to look for (again IMO) is someone who understands the relative costs involved. Young kids seem to have little understanding of outside field conditions and NO understanding of equipment costs. You of course, bear those costs, not the virgin engineer in his/her cubicle.

J
Parent - - By Robert48 (**) Date 03-29-2013 02:56
You understand my sitiuation exactly. It is hard to find anyone with experience beyond the class room. If you know anyone I would be glad to give them a shot. If what I am doing isn't worth a damn I will listen to what I need to do to make it right. Some of those guys want to re-invent the wheel just because you dont hve P.E after your name.
Parent - By JTMcC (***) Date 03-29-2013 19:02
I sent you a PM, good luck with the search.

J
Parent - - By Duke (***) Date 03-29-2013 03:02
I was asked to make an 'idiot proof' fixture when I was in my 20s. (a long, long time ago) Even then, I knew better. Told the boss, I can make it idiot resistant, but not idiot proof, will that be OK?
He just laughed, and said go ahead.
Parent - - By Dualie (***) Date 03-29-2013 03:44
every time i make something idiot proof they seem to come up with a bigger group of idiots.
Parent - By mike wiebe 3 (*) Date 03-29-2013 13:02
As my Dad used to say, by the time you make it idiot proof only an idiot will use it.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 03-29-2013 15:19
Rather like having to find a child to open the 'Child-Proof' pill bottle.  :lol:

So, you made it 'idiot-proof', now you have to find an idiot to operate it.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By JTMcC (***) Date 03-29-2013 19:10
Good stamped drawings and corresponding documentation thruout the process IS idiot proof.

That doesn't mean the higher level idiot won't cut off his arm or blow up the town and throw the earth off it's axis. It just means that you won't lose everything you own when the idiot goes to court because you've covered all bases and made the capability/capacity/service conditions crystal clear to the end user.
That's both a moral and legal issue.
If they ignore that information it's their problem not yours.

J
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Need engineer

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