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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / IS PWHT required to weld carbon steel with stainless steel
- - By vignesh5585 (*) Date 04-18-2013 06:30 Edited 04-21-2013 02:09
I need lil information of welding of dissimilar metals i.e ( carbon steel to stainless steel) and after welding does the joint require PWHT.details are given below

S S PIPE 14" SCH 120 (A-358 GR-316L   CL-1)

C S PIPE 14" SCH 140 (A-106 GR-B)

Electrode used is E-309L

process used is  GTAW(root + hotpass)+SMAW(filling + capping)...(FILLER USED is 309L+ E-309L)
IS POST WELD HEAT TREATMENT  required to weld above two metal ...if yes then please suggest supporting specification

while going through ASME B31.3 SUB SEC 331.2.3... PARAGRAPH (a) and (b) i noticed  POST WELD HEAT TREATMENT is required for dissimilar metal... but still am not sure ..plzz help me out...
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 04-18-2013 14:00
Okay, 

For myself at least, I think a little more information may be required:

1) Grade of Stainless steel and Carbon steel pipes.  Various grades of both or either will cause a variety of metalurgical variances.

2) Welding process: GMAW, FCAW, or SMAW.  I am presuming from the specs referenced you are dealing with SMAW, but just want to make sure.

3) Is there a code involved?

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 04-18-2013 15:15 Edited 04-18-2013 15:29
"Butter" each of the 2 members with 309 filler, then weld the 2 members together according to the joint configuration already chosen and verified as acceptable (I presume!:yell::eek::lol:)... I don't believe preheat is required but I'm not 100% sure if it is... Check the the contract & drawing notes as well as any welding notes included with this job or, ask the engineer what they want as far as preheat is concerned... Also check the relevant code or standard as well...

Finally, this is a general description of how this type of joint may be welded together... So it is not to be taken as your official set of instructions because as Brent already mentioned in his post; there's a whole lot of details missing that's necessary in order to take the appropriate steps require in producing a sound weld for a dissimilar type of joint to be welded together...

Once you gather all of the necessary information associated with this joint, you should then be able to produce a relatively sound joint with no need for PWHT if it is plain CS & 304 -316 SS pipe and there's a minimum restraint on the joint when welding @ the lowest current setting as possible in order to control both dilution and heat input.

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By cddolan74 (**) Date 04-19-2013 14:00
henry, curios to butter both members. I guess I would lean to the buttering of CS member. It also hard to think this would need PWHT, but code is code
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 04-19-2013 20:36
Btw Chris,

Did you end up achieving your goal of pursuing a Welding Engineering degree???

To answer your question, I was just giving a general description as opposed to a detailed version of what, how, and why one would take certain specific steps in order to produce a sound weld from joining together 2 dissimilar members of those metals without having all of the necessary details available in order to post an accurate, concise and precise description of what this person needs to do...

And if you read & comprehend my previous post properly, you will notice how I strongly suggest to the original poster to seek counsel from the engineer by asking the engineer what he/she wants to do  as far as preheat and to check with the contract,drawing & welding notes to gather up all of the necessary info for this joint... You will also notice that I write a disclaimer as well that CMA's enough to understand that my suggestion is just that...A SUGGESTION!!!:yell::eek::lol::cool:
What does CMA mean??? Cover My Arse!!!:yell::eek::lol::twisted::wink:

Respectfully,
henry
Parent - - By vignesh5585 (*) Date 04-19-2013 02:14 Edited 04-19-2013 02:58
Thanx guyzz for noticing my query

S S PIPE 14" SCH 120 (A-358 GR-316L   CL-1)

C S PIPE 14" SCH 140 (A-106 GR-B)

Electrode used is E-309L

process used is  GTAW(root + hotpass)+SMAW(filling + capping)...(FILLER USED is 309L+ E-309L)
IS POST WELD HEAT TREATMENT  required to weld above two metal ...if yes then please suggest supporting specification

Yesterday while going through ASME B31.3 SUB SEC 331.2.3... PARAGRAPH (a) and (b) i noticed  POST WELD HEAT TREATMENT is required for dissimilar metal... but still am not sure ..plzz help me out...
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 04-19-2013 14:12
vignesh5585,

First, I am remiss,  WELCOME TO THE AWS WELDING FORUM!!

That information helps considerably. 

If you are working to ASME then many factors come into play that should be carefully considered.  Code application, Project application, Job Specifications/Contract Documents with General Notes, and much more.  Information that we don't have access to. 

While we could offer some general guidelines, as Henry already did, we are not the ones with the liability.  You must consider all the possibilities in house and come to a procedure that your company, and ultimately the customer, are comfortable with. 

I'm unsure of the tenure of the question, are you the customer, contractor, a welder with questions, etc?  But a forum like this is not where you want to get advice with liablilty consequences.  Many on here will tell you that the advice just given by Al and myself is a bunch of unnecessary legal mumbo jumbo and just do it such and such a way.  It has worked for them for 20 years and ....ooooppppssss... Who built the fertilizer plant in Texas????  Who built the pipelines that have exploded recently??  Who put up the Biggee crane that came down??  Who built .... Well, hopefully you get the idea.  You can not be too safe and we are here for the protection of all parties involved and especially the Public Safety. 

Good luck.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By vignesh5585 (*) Date 04-20-2013 06:40
brent

hey am engineer working for offshore company in india...actually my client was asking me that is it necessary to go for post weld heat treatment for dissimilar metal....so wen i went thru asme 31.3 it specified that it requires pwht so i got confused......
Parent - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 04-19-2013 21:03 Edited 04-23-2013 19:02
My advice has nothing to see with PWHT but with the different thickness of the two pipes.
The two pipes are 14 inches. Their outside diameters are the same, but the inside diameters are not due to the difference in thickness.
No Code, Standard, specification, good engineering practice etc. will allow you to weld two pipe ends whose inside diameters are not the same.
In case you've overlooked that detail, and I hope not, here's my advice:

The Sch 120 pipe end has to be ground so its tip diameter is the same as the Sch 80 pipe. As the Sch 120 pipe is the carbon steel one, grinding may be carried out with a regular silicon carbide grinding wheel, motor or compressed air driven.
The ground zone width should be one inch minimum. It should be a continuous slope, starting from the pipe inside diameter and ending at the pipe bevel.
When you think that the two bevels have the same inside diameter, you should check it by means of an inside caliper in two different locations. 

As for the PWHT, B31.3 requires it for carbon steel pipe (thickness is 3/4 inches or more) but not for stainless steel. I'd believe (believe, not 100% sure), that PWHT isn't necessary when the two metals are welded together.   

Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil
Parent - - By ozniek (***) Date 04-20-2013 16:05
Hi Vignesh

As stated by prof. Crisi, you would want to taper the C/Steel pipe to match the thickness of the stainless steel pipe. Once this is done, the thickness of 14" Sch 80 will be 19.05mm. Given that you are welding a standard P1 carbon steel, the PWHT becomes an ASTM B31.3 requirement at >=20mm, so if this is the only basis for PWHT, then from a code perspective, no PWHT is required. No PWHT is required for the P8 stainless steel, irrespective of thickness, so no requirement from that.

In short, for your 19.05mm thick C/S to S/S joint there is no B31.3 code requirement for PWHT. As stated by some of the other people, there may be other reasons to apply PWHT. This should be stated on the relevant drawings or client specifications. Also note that I have assumed B31.3 is the code, as you mentioned in another reply that you were going through B31.3 to find answers. Please confirm that B31.3 is the design / fabrication code.

Regards
Niekie
Parent - - By vignesh5585 (*) Date 04-21-2013 02:08
Hey niekie

S S PIPE 14" SCH 120 (A-358 GR-316L   CL-1)

C S PIPE 14" SCH 140 (A-106 GR-B)

Electrode used is E-309L

process used is  GTAW(root + hotpass)+SMAW(filling + capping)...(FILLER USED is 309L+ E-309L)
IS POST WELD HEAT TREATMENT  required to weld above two metal ...if yes then please suggest supporting specification

while going through ASME B31.3 SUB SEC 331.2.3... PARAGRAPH (a) and (b) i noticed  POST WELD HEAT TREATMENT is required for dissimilar metal... but still am not sure ..plzz help me out...
Parent - - By ozniek (***) Date 04-21-2013 14:16
Hi Vignesh

Looks like I read your post incorrectly in terms of the pipe schedules. - OK

The SS 14" Sch 120 is 27.79mm thick, so after tapering the thicker CS pipe down to that thickness, then according to ASME B31.3, you will need to perform PWHT on the CS. No thickness of 316 SS will require PWHT. Strictly speaking, the weld will need PWHT according to the code. See 331.2.3(b):

(b) Heat treatment of welded joints including both
ferritic and austenitic components and filler metals shall
be as required for the ferritic material or materials unless
otherwise specified in the engineering design.

You will notice that it gives you an "escape clause": "unless otherwise specified in the engineering design"

To clarify how this clause could be implemented, see 331.2.2:

331.2.2 Exceptions to Basic Requirements. As indi-
cated in para. 331, the basic practices therein may require
modification to suit service conditions in some cases.
In such cases, the designer may specify more stringent
requirements in the engineering design, including heat
treatment and hardness limitations for lesser thickness,
or may specify less stringent heat treatment and hard-
ness requirements, including none.
When provisions less stringent than those in para.
331 are specified, the designer must demonstrate to the
owner’s satisfaction the adequacy of those provisions
by comparable service experience, considering service
temperature and its effects, frequency and intensity of
thermal cycling, flexibility stress levels, probability of
brittle failure, and other pertinent factors. In addition,
appropriate tests shall be conducted, including WPS
qualification tests.
-------------------------------------
This means that you can dispense with the PWHT requirement, as long as the appropriate engineering has been done to confirm that the resultant weld will be able to perform the specified service required of it.

Other options are:

1) Simply perform the PWHT. Most modern "L" grade austenitic stainless steels will not sensitise during the PWHT process, so would be OK, as long as you do not apply too long a heating cycle. This would obviously have to be proven during the welding procedure qualification testing. Also note that due to the large difference in thermal expansions between the CS and SS, there will still be rather high residual stresses in the welded joint following the PWHT, but certainly any hardened zones in the CS should be tempered. Because of the resultant high residual stresses, there may in fact not be much benefit to the PWHT, so it is often better to take other measures, and show through "engineering" that PWHT is not needed, or desirable. (See discussion above.)
2) Use a buttering technique. Here you would typically use an alloy that does not need PWHT, but can withstand it, to butter the CS weld surface. (Typically Ni based alloys of the "Inconel" type.) After buttering the weld surface of the CS, perform the required PWHT on the buttered end of the CS pipe. Then using the same Inconel filler, weld the SS pipe to the buttered CS pipe. No PWHT need be applied to the final joint.

As noted by some of the other people in this post, these types of situations need to be evaluated on an individual basis, to make sure that the resultant weld will perform the service required. This will need a detailed knowledge of the service / design conditions of the pipe.

Hope this helps.

Regards
Niekie
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 04-21-2013 14:42
This is one time I'm gunna agree with the majority and strongly suggest the OP gets some professional advice as Al suggests! Even suggestions are unethical with the limited info available on a forum.
Parent - - By ozniek (***) Date 04-21-2013 15:14
Hi 46.00

I agree that more "engineering" needs to be done, (as stated a number of times in my post) but often the best way to get that message across is to show why the engineering is necessary. If we do not know what we do not know, then how will we be able to come to the conclusion that we do not know? Forums like this help us with the process. I have certainly been helped in this way on this very forum!

Regards
Niekie
Parent - By 46.00 (****) Date 04-21-2013 20:25
Very true!
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 04-21-2013 21:05
In so many ways that is a typical human problem, not relaying total, adequate, and/or applicable information so those we are depending upon for answers can come to the proper conclusions and resolutions. 

Hopefully the suggestions and information presented are giving that opportunity to the OP.  I know I am learning more from the thread.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By vignesh5585 (*) Date 04-22-2013 02:04
hey NIEKIE

THANX FOR UR VALUABLE COMMENT IT HELPED ME ALOT.....I WENT THROUGH PARA (b) BUT still this line is confusing  "filler metals shall
be as required for the ferritic material or materials unless otherwise specified in the engineering design"

can u help
Parent - - By ozniek (***) Date 04-22-2013 12:23
Hi Vignesh

I think you are reading this incorrectly. You need to read the whole paragraph, then you will see that it is saying that all components of the joint must be subjected to the PWHT required for the ferritic material. It does this by listing the different components of the joint:

1) The ferritic material
2) The austenitic material
3) The filler metal

It is NOT requiring you to use any specific filler metal. You are free to use any filler metal that will result in a joint that will be serviceable.

Hope that helps.

Regards
Niekie
Parent - By vignesh5585 (*) Date 04-22-2013 15:37 Edited 04-22-2013 15:42
ok ..thanxx again ..niekie

according asme 31.3 pwht is required rite.....Our designer has specified that only CS material above 19 mm should be subjected to pwht but he didnt mentioned anything about dissimilar metal,when we had tlak abt this then he replied refer asme 31.3 for further detail....
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 04-23-2013 19:16
Niekie,
Take a look at Vignesh first posting. It has been edited on April 21, which means that in April 21 Vignesh corrected the pipe thicknesses stated on his first posting.
That's why both you and me referred to Sch 80 and 120, that later turned to be Sch 120 and 140.
No mistake from our part. It's Vignesh who later on realized that the thicknesses were stated incorretly. No problem. ERRARE HUMANUM EST, as ancient Romans said. 
Giovanni S. Crisi
Parent - - By ozniek (***) Date 04-24-2013 13:37
Hi Prof Crisi

Thanks for pointing that out. I thought age was getting to me!

Regards
Niekie
Parent - By vignesh5585 (*) Date 04-24-2013 15:04
All guyzz

I apologize for incorrect info given by me......

cheers
- By 803056 (*****) Date 04-19-2013 13:27 Edited 04-20-2013 15:41
Hello vignesh5585;

While you can get some very good information from this forum, there are times when it is advisable to hire a professional to help solve problems. This is one of those cases.

If you are building something for your own use and you are willing to accept advice from someone you don't know it is your business. However, if the problem has financial ramifications and if there is a possibility someone could be injured or worse were it to fail, it is time to consult with someone with the appropriate credentials. 

Every professional has to learn or recognize they are not all knowing and there are occasions when they need to consult with a professional that has the appropriate training and experience needed to solve the problem or provide advice.

Best regards - Al
- By weldktm Date 06-07-2013 12:00
you could have a look at this link:
http://www.weldinguide.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12
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