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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / CWI is not what it used to be
- - By junkiron (**) Date 04-27-2013 01:20
CWI aint what it used to be, its too easy to pass.  You got a bunch teenagers inspecting now dont even know what a WPS is. they where calling it a code.

It used to mean something.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 04-27-2013 04:03 Edited 04-28-2013 15:40
Junkiron,

Believe me, I know what you mean.  At least 'I' think so.  Let me explain. 

As many here know, I own a shop in Prescott Valley, AZ.  I am also a CWI and do TPI work all over.  AND, I am also AZ Section Chairman and Chairman of the Certification Committee of the AZ Section.  I have many discussions about this very matter.  And the issue being similar to what we often talk about here on the forum between being 'Qualified' and/or 'Certified'. 

When talking about that with welders we often cover many aspects of the technical and code defined differences between the two.  BUT, we seldom talk about it in depth in regards to Certified Welding Inspectors.  See, a person starts out as a welder, does a little in house QC work, goes to a seminar, and rather with luck, skill, or a combination of the two gets 'certified' as an AWS/CWI. 

BUT, we often see inspectors who are quite impressed with themselves come onto jobsites who haven't a clue how to properly carry out the responsibilities of a CWI.  In so many ways the position really needs additional training in order for the CWI to be truly 'qualified'.  There is much to learn that goes beyond what is learned at the seminar.  And, though there are many qualifications that were expected to be met to qualify for the exam, way too often these qualifications do not prepare the new inspector for what they are going to be up against.  This has even proved to be the case with some who were welders, become NDT techs, and later became CWI's.  They may have many good qualifications and good knowledge and understanding of the codes.  But, applying that to their new position as a CWI is beyond them with their current abilities. 

How many jobs do you know where, regardless of previous education, certification, experience, etc, the new hire is not put through some form of further training?  And, it has always been the stand of AWS, and stated in many of the inspector references, that this is an employer/customer responsibility to make sure that the CWI meets the proper qualifications, skills, and experience for the job at hand.  But, as we all know, with profits at stake, production schedules to be kept, and many other factors to be taken into consideration, this often doesn't happen to the degree that it should. 

Now, as to your statement about how easy it is... many here know that the pass rate is not all that high.  And, having taken the exams myself, I know that it is quite a test.  AND, to expand on that, my oldest son just went to Las Vegas for the seminar and exam.  He has worked for me for about 16 years and has been in other areas of construction as well.  We drilled and studied.  He sat through the seminar.  He took the exam this last Saturday.  The instructor for the seminar informed the class that as of February the exams had been changed.  Partly because the WIT book is has been updated as well as the current edition of D1.1- 2010.  But, also, just as you and many others have expressed concern over, the integrety of the exams was possibly becoming a bit of a question as the pass rate seemed to be climbing (this sentence is my thought from info available, not from AWS).  Besides, it gets changed from time to time to make sure it is a trustworthy system of qualifying CWI's. 

Many of the seminar instructors ask their students to inform them on rather they passed.  They use it as a gauge as to how well they are doing their job to teach the materials and get them to be apply to search for answers.  The current impression amongst instructors is that the pass rate is even lower with the new exams than they were before. 

Personally, I think this is a good thing.  Now, I'm not too sure I want them just trying to see how hard they can make it just for the sake of having a hard exam.  The question is rather it is doing it's job of weeding out the unqualified, unready, unlearned applicants while allowing those who know their stuff to pass.  Believe me, we really do want the best possible people to be inspectors.  Also, it will be contended that with more failures comes increased revenues as the testees will have to pay for more exams.  I don't feel this is a proper appeal as they do not control rather people keep retaking the exams.  There are some who will keep trying for something regardless of cost.  Besides, take it enough times and you may get 'lucky'.  At what point does it cease to be about qualification and only about luck? 

My son is not a teenager and personally, I have not seen any teens come through an exam I have proctored.  There are some pretty young ones though.  But look at B5.1.  Age is not part of the qualification.  Experience and education. 

Also, CWI's only need a cursory knowledge of WPS's.  They aren't expected to write them, though they are allowed.  So is anyone else at a fabrication shop or erection company.  I have known many who could use a lot more training about them.  But, they are to be approved by the engineer.  The CWI only needs to know enough to make sure they are being followed in production.  They should be as capable as the welders to read them. 

Bottom line:  I personally agree that many need further training in the application of codes, WPS's, measuring methods, and many other functions.  But, be careful about what you expect out of a CWI. 

BTW, my son passed.  We are going to be slowly changing from fabrication to all inspections work.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By junkiron (**) Date 04-28-2013 20:57
Well I heard that now they take an average of all three test, where as before you had  to pass all of them. If you failed one you failed them all. Why would AWS do that, I just think it doesnt carry as much weight as it used to.
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 04-28-2013 21:06
Where did you hear that?  It is not correct.  That only applies to how your score will determine if you qualify for the CAWI since you FAILED to score well enough to receive your CWI.  It will also determine how many parts of the test you must retake.

No one passes the CWI exam without passing all three parts with a 72% or higher score.  You need to verify some facts by reading the qualifications and specifications contained in B5.1 and QC1 before believing those things and spreading falsehoods.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By MRWeldSoCal (***) Date 04-29-2013 15:26
I think the test could be a bit harder.  Im about to be 28 and I took the test December before last and I missed the Code portion by only 2 points... My average was enough to let me restest on JUST the code again.  Which I passed with a 90 something percent...  I was the youngest guy in the testing room by at leat 10 years...  Needless to say there are inspectors with no experience, I have been welding as a career since I was 18 and also studied 4 hours a day for 6 months to take that test and I still think it could have been harder.  I think the experience a welder has going into the CWI is just more valuable. Even though its not his job to actually show you how to weld or give advice. I have found that my welding knowledge beyond the CWI has gotten more positive things done in the right direction for companies.  I write WPS's and PQR's right now and I just started my CWI career.  I think the People who WANT to do it do it best.  You have to love welding and what its all about.

my 2 cents

J
Parent - By bruce69 (*) Date 04-29-2013 02:58
If you think that's bad my former company used to send unqualified P.E.'s to do weld inspections.  The P.E.'s would protest, stating they knew nothing about welding but in the end did as they were told.  Management (don't get me started about how bad they were) did not care.  I would rather have an inspector who has passed the test than a P.E. who knows nothing about welding.
Parent - - By RideKTM (*) Date 04-29-2013 15:40
I have also ran into a few CWI's that have very little experience, I wish the AWS would some how mark the issued card # with a "smart number" that you could tell how many tries they had at the exam. I personally know two "inspectors" that took the the test 3 and  4 times respsectively in a 9 month period. I would like to think they could put in a system where there is a waiting period for one year of taking the exam after failing the second try. I can fully understand people not passing the first time, nerves and a lot of pressure but come on if you take the test over and over eventually you will pass it.

All I can think of is the saying of "If you put a typewriter in a monkey cage with unlimited paper eventually one of the monkey's will write Beethoven's fifth".............
Parent - By supermoto (***) Date 04-29-2013 16:45
I agree to an extent.  What do you mean it isn't what it used to be?  Were the requirements more strict in the past?  To my knowledge AWS hasn't "loosened" the requirements.

I think that they should do it the same as NDE levels and you have to have a certain amount of hours and go CAWI, CWI, and SCWI.

I know you have to have your levels of experience as a welder or related to welding.  I may have talked to a few individuals that have lied on there applications as having a min of 5 years experience as a welder, one was a cop for a number of years.  These individuals were all very intelligent and knowledgeably of applicable codes, standards, and welding.  Other the other hand I have been around individuals who were both very young and inexperienced as well as the old timers who have been a CWI for a long time.  Both didn't know simple D1.1 preheat requirements, the difference between a 6G and a 6GR, or the difference between certification and qualification.

I have been a CWI since 06 and many things I have picked up has been by mistake of mine and of others.  A lot is to be learned through experiences and how do we get them unless someone is to bring us in at an entry level inexperienced CWI. 

My point is that if AWS has set a standard in an application and a exam and it is met then this individual is just as qualified.  At least they have a card that says so.  Are they as good as others, no.  I still have a lot to learn even as a 7 year newbie but all you can do is try and educate the inexperienced and make sure they do know what they are doing.  Employers need to make sure they know what they are capable of and keep checking up on them, maybe set a yearly in house exam.  I feel it is my duty to educate others and if they don't know and I don't make sure they do know the correct information then shame on me.  If I make a mistake and I am wrong then I surely hope someone will do the same, because if I don't know then I can't fix it.  You can learn something from every person you meet, no matter their intelligent level, I guarantee someone has a different experience then you and you can learn from it.  Lets be a team player and help educate the less experienced as this is what this forum us to be used for.  I understand that you really should know what a WPS is, that is pretty ridiculous.

And then of course there are the individuals that just can['t be taught and just happened to get lucky and pass a couple of parts on an exam.
Parent - By newinsp (**) Date 05-02-2013 16:53
I don't know about that.  I had the opportunity to take the CWI exam, while in college in the early 1990s, with a couple of other guys whose grades were nowhere near to what I was making.  We had to help them during class.  One passed on the first try and the other made CAWI.  Back then I couldn't afford the 80 dollars, I think, it cost for the exam.  I just got mine last year and it was very difficult.  Of course it could be because of my age.  I'm a bit over the hill.
- - By JTMcC (***) Date 04-29-2013 23:41 Edited 04-29-2013 23:45
AWS should turn out inspectors with the knowledge needed to conform to the code.

In my expierince they do that most times but they don't do that sometimes.

The Big Kicker is the human factor as I've always said. Inspector doesn't like my haircut, doesn't like a sticker on my truck, doesn't like my truck or my buddy's truck, doesn't like my buddy's tattoo, gone with the wind. A sound welder drove a thousand miles and missed a test because a inspector guy's daughter ran off with a derilict on a Harley and he had a Harley sticker on his old 200. All you can do is loan him some money for fuel if needed and a give a friendly pat on the back.
I'm not talking about farm code guys or a real welder having an off day, it happens on some of the slickest beads/lids I've ever seen. Better than mine (that passed) on the same test.

What can you do. Human nature is a serious force in this world. I really don't see how AWS can manipulate that to a better place. All they can do is give stamps to people who are fairly competent in technical terms. All else is just real world.

A lot of inspection I've observed over the decades is like a lot of cops I've observed. Some are weak little men with fragile ego's on a quest to lord over others. Some are mature men who decide by what they observe.

In the course of humanity this will never change.

If anything they need to more clearly define what a standard CWI is and isn't qualified to make a call on. I see them (CWI's) used in some pretty bizarre ways, sometimes, by the EOR.
That would likely result in more layers, ie different levels of CWIdom, and of course many more millions income for AWS and bureacrats running amok, but the gap between EOR and an average CWI is LAAARGE and leads in my experience to a lot of bad confusion (and delays, delays kill) at ground level where the electrode meets the iron. Given a really good Engineer all can be smooth/happy/productive, but given a not so weld savvy EOR relying on a newly minted CWI it can be rather knarly/unpleasant and put considerable (unneeded) cost on a project, and kill all end producer profit in the process, sometimes based on faulty understanding of code principles.

My little take is based on field experience not shop, on mainly new construction. Not a broad overview and only what I've seen. Not bashing as some of my greatest allies (in work terms) have been solid CWI's. The poorer CWI's have also been our biggest hindrence on other jobs. Like I said, the human element.

J

I've got to add on edit, because that looks like a bit of whining, that I'd rather sell code welds under our (USA) present system than under any other alternative. It works pretty dadgum good most days.
Parent - - By 99205 (***) Date 04-30-2013 00:52
A med school student who graduates at the top of his class, has something in common with a med student that graduates at the bottom of their class.  They will probably be called "Doctor" one day.  The world of welding is not a perfect place, you have to deal with the "Box of Chocolates" life gives you, the best way you can.
Parent - - By JTMcC (***) Date 04-30-2013 01:24
99205 I think it's even more important that the "bottom of the class" Dr is actually interested in his patients and is working to be informed in his field and keeping up.

I completely understand your comparison, but some "just made it" guys turn out to be exceptional at doing the work in the field as well (medical or welded junk). You just can't ever tell what motivation lies in the human mind and the end results can be suprising.

John
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 04-30-2013 02:17
Hello JT,

Hope all is going well with you.  I appreciate your comments, and those of 99205.

Regardless of trade, profession, occupation I think the following applies:  Good people can come out of any school, Bad people can come out of any school.  While a good deal depends on the instructors and the material a great deal more depends on the person's attitude, spirit, and character. 

And that carries over to the finished product as well regardless of the occupation as the character of the student is usually manifested in the doctor/welder/inspector/engineer etc.  That being, one who desires to always study to better themselves and be the best they can possibly be at whatever they do.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By JTMcC (***) Date 04-30-2013 04:26
Well my input on the test and how hard or easy it should be is pretty minimal but I do know this for a fact, when there's a code issue the ultimate,great and simple question is this, "OK, show me in the code/standard".

That settles most things quick, it can also really make the duration of the job a living nightmare for the welders. But right is right even if it means you get grief and lose money over it. I've been down that road many times.

Inspection is like a wife. As my Dad used to say "If you get a good one there's nothing like it, and if you get a bad one there's nothing like it". : )

I'm way off track here. But expecting every inspector to be a reasonable human is asking too much in my opinion. Hopefully most will be. People are just like that.

J
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 04-30-2013 10:22
The code committee is very serious about making the test harder with every revision.

The worst CWI's I've ever encountered are the old ones... Who actually had an easy test in the 80's or 90's and think they know something.
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 04-30-2013 14:17
I don't know about that Lawrence,

Some of the worst ones I have run into are the younger ones who somehow got past the review of experience and then passed the CWI exam and now, with a chip on their shoulder because they have a God complex, hit the work with gusto trying to prove they know something where they haven't a clue how it really works.  They think they can tell the welders and supervisors how to do their jobs when they don't have that authority, knowledge, or skill/experience.  All they are supposed to do is observe and report.  Not that we can't offer some professional input so the contractor doesn't get blindsided two weeks later when the engineer finally reviews the report and they have to fix something that got covered up.  But it is not our resonsibility to tell them how to do their job. 

Anyway, I think ego problems cross all lines of age, sex, nationality, religion, etc.  We see it all around us, and even,  oh yes, in ourselves. 

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 04-30-2013 16:17
You cannot test a person into being a good inspector.
And while a cetain level must be maintained with certification testing, if you make the test harder and harder all you get are people who are good at taking tests.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 04-30-2013 16:31

>You cannot test a person into being a good inspector.


Ding Ding!...I agree with this statement. :cool:
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 04-30-2013 20:13
"You cannot test a person into being a good inspector" Woof! I'll do a X's 2 on that one.

Been a lot of real insightful comments made in this thread. Some I agree with and other's not so much.
Back in '86, my first test was all questions... seemed like a thousand of them, well actually somewhere between 4 and 500 if memory serves me right. One section alone was 175 questions. Can't say if it was necessarily "easier" though. Now in '98 when I took it again, the Part B was still in it's infancy. They supplied PLASTIC rulers, calipers and other measurement devices (I'll not even glorify them by call them tools!). It was somewhat akin to attempting the extraction of a metal sliver from your finger while wearing boxing gloves and using a flint knife! In the shop I was working at the time (I was given the remarkable opportunity to teach an "in house" CWI prep course seminar), we nick named it the "Fisher Price Inspector's Kit". Now those worthless/contemptible doohickies made the test a real challenge. That was the worst of the three! This last time was a dream come true with REAL inspection tools.
I think the test is a valid one nowadays, or at least it was in '08 when last I took it. NO! I aint NEVER letting this one lapse!
Now as to how the AWS could make the exam more applicable to real life??? I say they should have a live roll play section where you get to mark up 17 inches of ugly weld while some 237 pound, hung over, tweaked out, hairy backed, road whore who is 3 states ahead of the bounty man is ready to whup yo azz with a 1/0 stinger!
Now that would be real life inspection...
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 05-01-2013 11:12
I took my exam working from the 98' edition of D1.1. I left that 6 hr exam heading home and wasn't sure where I stood until 6-8 weeks had passed. I'd say it was pretty tough, at least for me.
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 05-02-2013 13:45
Agreed. Any average college student can cram for a test. Hang them out over 40 stories of iron, under a bridge, or into a refinery and the difference between actual experience/knowledge and book learning becomes blantantly obvious.

It's all well and good to study, but study alone won't get it.
Parent - - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 05-02-2013 02:40 Edited 05-03-2013 01:30
etc "The Big Kicker is the human factor as I've always said."  etc.   that whole thing

JTMcC   very well said!:cool:
Parent - - By WELDICCAWSCWI (**) Date 05-03-2013 05:56
what really sucks is when you go out to a job where the previousd iknspector
wasn 't doing his job an d the contractor expects you to carrry on the  look the
other way approach  of your predecessor. i took over a job where the previous
inspector was signing off welds he never looked at as they were already  insulated
prior to VT .I was asked by  the project manager to continue the practice.  i refused
and let the lab know what wsas going on. i was replaced by another insp  ,somtimes you cant
win even when you do the right thing. somed of these cwi will sign off anything for the money or t hey just dont know
any better
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 05-03-2013 16:13
WELDICCAWSCWI,

Sux when you can't do the job you were hired to do.
It's happened to me a couple of times. On one gig, I rejected some inadequate fire proofing. The Owner/Contractor offered to have me meet him for dinner. I agreed. In the back of my mind, I intended to show up but demand separate checks upon arrival from the wait staff. I really wanted to check out this restaurant I'd heard about there in Ventura, CA that he suggested we meet at. OK? Next thing I know, he told me there would be an attractive lady there for me. Quite obvious where this was headed... I can't remember the exact words used but upon my polite refusal of the "escort", he then offered to supply some one of another persuasion!!! I refused the invitation, delivered my samples and report. Get a nasty call from the manager next day about how they had a long history with this contractor, blah blah, I give a rat's ice! I was never called back by that Lab.

Not every project is worth taking on. In QC, I consider it a badge of honor to get booted off for doing the right thing.

Danged it! I never did make it to that seafood restaurant. However...
I still have my integrity and virginity (which I define as; having never been entered!)
Parent - - By WELDICCAWSCWI (**) Date 05-03-2013 16:25
im still a virgin too but i feel very violated at times . well said
Parent - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 05-04-2013 04:15
Ethics....either you have them or you do not.   I respect those that do...those that don't only deserve and ass whooping from me if necessary the lead in my bullets are worth more then they are.  Unfortunately the gene pool needs chlorine desperately....the QC world is no different in this regard.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / CWI is not what it used to be

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