AWS D1.1 2010, 6.Inspection,6.1.4 [3] "An individual who, by training or experience, or both, in metals fabrication, inspection and testing, is competent to perform inspection of the work".
Referencing the above language my question is: I wish to test and qualify a welder to a WPS I had qualified by PQR through a CWI last year. It is a downhand GMAW fillet weld on a tubular connection per figure 4.6 that required macro-etching examination. I have 28 years in the welding trades and was the welder qualifying the PQR/WPS. Am I, as the contractor, allowed to test and qualify a welder to the WPS without the CWI involvement?
You sir are trying to stir the pot with that question!!
The simple answer to your question is 'Yes'. But, let's try to explain a few things (and hopefully Al and others will chime in here).
First, That clause is pertaining particularly to one who is doing inspections of finished product in a shop. You will mainly see it applied to in house QC where they appoint someone to do their QC work before the TPI looks at it. Seldom will an Engineer approve a TPI on the same clause even though they can do so. Occassionally they will be limited by the wording in the IBC and/or the Contract Documents as to who will be approved to do the Special Inspections and those provisions go beyond the requirements for in house QC.
**NOTE: I did not say that the clause was solely applied to in house inspections.**
Now, secondly, you, as the company owner are the one responsible to 'Qualify/Certify' your people for the work at hand. Many companies do in house certifications.
BUT, for the field work the plans will often call out that the personnel must be qualified by an independent third party agency. And, in either case the TPI can challenge the welders abilities and he must either be pulled from the job or take another test that the TPI will witness and have tested.
Thirdly, you better know your code and it's proper application and be able to properly test the parts and prove they are in conformance with all the provisions of the applicable code. Then, fill out the welder's certs per the boundaries of the code and his qualification limits.
A question for you: Is this D1.1 or D1.3? Sounds like more of a sheet metal application? Is the GMAW in the Short Circuit Transfer mode? When you say 'downhand' do you mean vertical down? (Downhand often will be used to reference a part that is in the flat position). I'm asking because it seems unusual to do Spray mode vertical down. Just trying to picture your application.
Have a Great Day, Brent
Brent-
I'll admit it was a loaded question likely to aggravate any number of qualified individuals whose credentials might appear to have been dismissed as unneccesary. Not really my intent but I'm trying to cut through some red tape and make sense of the code provisions that demand it be the Contractor who "certifies" the welder, when in practice it is the CWI who's opinion and test examination are the deciding factors.
I created a Vertical Down GMAW Short Circuit [ .035 ER 70S6; C25 shielding gas; 19-21 V; 290 IPM] WPS per Clause 4 PQR requirement for a tubular fillet weld in the 5F position in order to fabricate pedestrian guardrail for a state job. The coupon from the PQR was cut and macro-etched by a CWI who also completed the paper work for the test records and the Welder Qualification for myself as the person who did the coupons. I want to bring in another welder now that the job is to go into production and the CWI is not available. I could of course try to find another, or simply send the new welders test coupon into a testing labratory for macro etching and qualification to my WPS, but it occurred to me after reading in D1.1 the reference from the threads original post and thought, why do I need to send this to anyone? I can cut, polish and etch the coupons; I can verify fusion to the root as required, and sign off on it myself. Or maybe not, hence my question. The only person who will be inspecting my product will be a state inspector at my shop. All the welding will be done at my shop, there will be no field welding. The state fabrication inspector will in all likelyhood wish to see Welder Qualifications for any welders performing the work. The main difference I see is that my welder quals and the PQR did get stamped by the CWI's stamp aong with my signature of certification, and the paperwork I will produce will not have a CWI stamp, but then niether would any test record from a lab.
Test the welder, cut, etch and examine the coupon for root and base metal fusion, fill out the forms, sign the certification of the contractor and get busy. What am I missing here?
Thanks in advance.
Hi yojimbo,
Don't know what state you're in, but the state of NC offers, for a fee, welder qualification tests for contractors.
newinsp-
There are similar state certifications, local juristictions inspection administration, that certify welders to AWS D.1. standards under a locally governed board, but the qualifications are all based on pre qualified AWS WPSs. They're mostly run by the technical colleges, are not free and none that I know of can or will produce welder quals to AWS D1.1 only the welder cert with the local governing board cert. Mostly politics but does me no good in this matter. When I asked a few of the tech college instructors who are AWS CWIs why they wouldn't do an AWS D1.1 Welder Qualification I was told it was "a conflict of interest". I saw no reason to question such a prevarication or give the responders further credence. Thanks for the suggestion though.
They have a problem with having the ability to use their status when they are funded by public funds through the college. Others will site 'conflict of interest' when asked to certify their own students. Both can be a little sticky in certain situations and/or to certain businesses trying to make a living by charging fees for those same services and having to buy expensive equipment, pay for expensive insurance, etc. They use their CWI only as a means to explain to students why their work is not good enough.
Have a Great Day, Brent
You're welcome. What I was referring to is run by DOT and required of contractors to weld on any state projects: [url=]
https://connect.ncdot.gov/resources/Materials/Materials/Field%20Welder%20Certification.pdf%5b/url%5d Applicants or their employer should complete the “NCDOT Welding Test Request Form”
and mail, fax, or email to the following:
Materials and Tests Unit
770-B Park Centre Drive
Kernersville, North Carolina 27284
Fax (336) 993-8740
Email to:
weldtest@state.dot.nc.us
A nominal charge will be required for testing and certification as follows:
S.I.P. Welder $150.00
Bridge Welder $300.00
Pipe Welder $300.00
Replacement Picture ID Card $10.00
Proper Identification
and a
Check or Money Order
payable to North Carolina
Department of Transportation is required prior processing. No Exceptions.
I do understand that some full time instructors, who are CWIs, have an agreement with their college for welder qualification testing. Most part time (adjunct) instructors work under a contract and should be able to help you at your shop or theirs.
You have some good answers and I have read through some of them.
My response to your question is like this.
NOT only are you allowed to "test and qualify the welder" you are the preferred authority for such. In no code that I am aware of does a 3rd party take over the responsibility for qualification and certification of welders. Some codes allow for it such as D1.1 and B31.X but it is not the preferred situation.
This does not mean that individual project specifications cannot require 3rd party involvement. That's the purpose of engineered project specifications. But the code by itself does not require such.
I'm sure as a contractor you are aware however I will touch on it. The "code" is not the only specification for most projects that are properly managed.
There is a page at
http://weldingclassroom.org/index.php/welding-info/certification/welder-certification/ that addresses my opinion on this in a bit more detail and at the bottom there is an image of the signature section of the WPQ form I use.
I briefly read through some of the responses but hope to add something just so I can feel like I'm still smart about this stuff :).
Have a good day.
Gerald Austin
I have waited a bit before jumping in on this thread because it is not a simple question to answer. There are certain facts included in this question that I am not addressing because they detract from the root of the basic premise of the question being asked. Here goes:
Every welding standard I am familiar with requires the employer to certify their own welders. The employer is responsible to "certify" their welders, i.e., employees, that have met the qualification requirements of the applicable code or standard. I know of no code requirement that states the individual administering the test must be a CWI. There may be project specification that require the welder qualification test be administered or witnessed by an individual that holds a current CWI certification, but it is not a code requirement.
Someone once made the statement that the CWI has to be a Philadelphia lawyer. That is not far from the truth. One must understand the difference between qualification and certification. The welder qualification is the part where the welder welds a test coupon and passes the requisite tests, i.e., volumetric examination, guided bend tests, nick break test, etc., as required by the applicable welding standard. The certification is where the employer signs the certifying statement attesting to the fact that the welder met the requisite qualification requirements.
AWS D1.1 is one of the few welding standards that permits the Engineer to accept evidence of previous qualification provided the documentation is in order. I believe the basic premise of any code is that the current employer must accept liability and responsibility for the employee's work. The mechanism used is for the current employer to sign the certifying statement included on every welder qualification/performance test record. My position is that the current employer must co-sign a qualification/performance test record from a previous employer or third party to indicate acceptance of liability and responsibility for that welder's work.
A contractor can qualify welding procedures, brazing procedures and qualify welders and brazers with in-house personnel. They are free to retain the services of a CWI to help administer the qualification of procedures or welders, but the current employer still has the responsibility to "certify" the welder that have met the qualification requirements.
I have been qualifying welders for over thirty years. I do not certify welders because I am not their employer. I know of no welding code or standard that permits a third party to certify the welder. As a matter of fact, ASME Section IX states that the qualification of welders cannot be delegated to a third party (Article QW-300.2). API 1104 has similar requirements as do most AWS welding standards.
When I work with contractor to qualify their welders I qualify the welder and sign the test record as the individual that witnessed the test and when appropriate I sign the test record for any mechanical tests I perform. I leave it up to the employer to sign the certifying statement included on every welder performance test record. Even the self-employed welder is responsible for signing the certifying statement.
When the Engineer delegates the responsibility of reviewing welding documents to me, I check to see that the current employer has signed and certified the paperwork as being correct and true. If the current employer has not signed the certifying statement it means the employer has not accept responsibility for the test record. The paperwork is rejected because it does not meet the code requirement.
Back to the original question, "Am I, as the contractor, allowed to test and qualify a welder to the WPS without the CWI involvement?"
My response is "Yes." However, as the contractor you have the responsibility of ensuring the tests are conducted properly and in accordance with the applicable code.
There are times when the services of a CWI or third party are prudent. The use of third party adds transparency to the process and usually the third party has more experience administering welder qualification tests and qualifying welding procedures. It provides the customer with a sense of comfort that the testing was conducted fairly and was not biased.
Let's face facts, not all CWI are created equal. The question must be asked, "Does the CWI have a working knowledge of the applicable welding standard?" One way to assess the CWI's knowledge of the applicable code is to ask if he has taken the appropriate open code book exam. AWS offers a number of open code book examinations where the CWI has to demonstrate the ability to apply the provisions of the applicable code. AWS provides the CWI with an ""Endorsement Card" listing the different open code book examination he has passed. Is the system perfect? No, but it is the best thing currently available to a contractor to easily assess the CWI's abilities.
This question also leads me to something that I find rather interesting, that is how AWS certifies welders through their affiliate laboratories, i.e., the ATF. The idea of AWS certifying welders is contrary to every welding standard I have ever worked with. It is a great marketing tool, but it violates nearly every welding code used in the United States that requires the employer to certify the welders have been properly qualified. Under the auspices of D1.1 only the Engineer has the authority to accept previous "qualification," it says nothing of accepting previous "certification." Is it an inconvenience that AWS simply choses to overlook?
Best regards - Al
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