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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Purging Issues with 98% Argon/ 2% Nitrogen
- - By MRWeldSoCal (***) Date 06-04-2013 15:46
Im running 6G pipe tests for my crew.  I have to run a 98/2  Argon/ Nitrogen backing gas...  The client wants a .5% Oxygen content so that the inside sugars just slightly to improve corrosion resistance.  We are welding on a Super Duplex SS, and its a 6" sch. 40 coupon. 

My trouble is getting a clean seal for my purge.  I can barely get it to .55%  Im running it at 35 cfm till I get close with my meter then backing it off to 5 CFM and it will slowly start to climb back out.

Any Ideas?

Two of the times I used metal caps then taped them, the last times I used cardboard caps and those times it was leaking somewhere...
Parent - By MMyers (**) Date 06-04-2013 16:21 Edited 06-04-2013 16:23
Is your meter calibrated?  The difference between 5% and 5.5% isn't a whole lot - you're already way over the "cliff" of getting the heavy ID oxide. 

O2 readers are very sensitive in my experience, but you can get away with some stuff regardless of what the meter is saying at that very moment.  We recently did a job where we would purge out the ID of a part till O2 was below 40ppm, then completely turn off the purge within 1 minute of welding.  The root IDs were generally sliver (no heat tint).  For your application, I'd continue with taping the dams, making sure to close any other hole you can find (leaving a small vent hole is fine, I usually use a 1/4" dia hole in the dam opposing my purge tube location).  Then I'd increase the pre-weld flow rate from 35 up quite a bit, maybe to 60 CFH, then keep the flow rate higher during welding, maybe 15 CFH unless you see some concavity on the root, then reduce it further as needed.  As soon as the welder break the arc, crank the flow rate again.  The goal is to limit the mount of time the O2 will have to climb between the low flow purge and the high flow purge. 

Getting seven volume exchanges is a good rule of thumb before you start really taking O2 readings.  I usually turn the purge on and finish my setup before I take an O2 reading.
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 06-04-2013 21:33
They sell mixers that you can adjust and customize your shielding gas mix.  Should be able to get one from any supplier.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-04-2013 18:03
"The client wants a .5% Oxygen content so that the inside sugars just slightly to improve corrosion resistance."

That is one I have not heard before.

Al
Parent - By fbrieden (***) Date 06-04-2013 21:05
Almost contradicts the reason for a purge.
Parent - - By MRWeldSoCal (***) Date 06-04-2013 22:28
Well we talked with a man who has his PHD in welding and has done study after study for this Zeron 100 material.  For oil wells in the ocean and many other ocean engineering projects.  They has studies on which welding processes have the best resistance to corrosion as well... This is what he told us will give you the best resistance against chlorides inside the pipes from ocean water.  The sugaring is so light that it only turns the weld a dingy gold color but it is still smooth and clean looking.. You can just see almost a grey film on it.  I mean hey its the Doc is right , you learn something new every day!
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-04-2013 22:39 Edited 06-04-2013 22:50
I had a PhD from Yale inquire about fabricating a steel cube measuring 1 meter per side with a Plexiglas port on each side so he could see what was happening inside the cube when it was pressurized to 20000 psi. Oh yea, and he didn't want to design, fabricate, or inspect it to ASME Section VIII because that involved too many calculations and too much red tape.

Education does not always equate to intelligence.

I would like to see the studies this fellow conducted. He might be onto something; "Oxidation is good."

I see some rational to his thinking. Passivity is a property of stainless steel that involves the formation of chromium oxide that prevents further oxidation. However, root oxidation due to insufficient purge, i.e., excessive atmospheric gases, may involve more than the oxidation of chrome. It is an interesting concept.

The degree of oxidation you are speaking of is simply oxidation. It is also referred to as heat tint or iridescent heat tint by other welding standards. Sugaring, sometime called decarborizing, is usually a condition where the root surface is blackened with a wrinkled caked or crusty appearance. Those terms are usually considered to be nonstandard terms.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By fschweighardt (***) Date 06-04-2013 23:51 Edited 06-04-2013 23:59
You may be sucking in some air from your root gap.  Are you taping it off?

Adding O2 to make the stainless "more stainless" seems waaaaay off to me.

Cr2O3 is the passive film that makes stainless, well . . stainless.  If you have some elemental chromium hanging out on the root side of the weld, as soon as you expose the root side to air, that Cr is going to grab all of the oxygen it needs right now.

As I am sure you know, Al2O3 is the same type of film responsible for aluminum's corrosion resistance.  Ever have to add some nice O2 into your Al shielding/purge gas to make sure the Al did it's passivation thing?  Probably not.

I bet this guy read that you can try to shoot for .5% O2 in the purge, as long as the O2 comes from air.  Reason is that if you have .5% O2, you also have ~2% N2, which is far and away the most commonly specified mixed gas for duplex GTAW..Seems like you already are using the 2%N2 for your gas, maybe both shield and purge.

This link
http://www.docin.com/p-448996075.html
allows you to see a Weir materials manual for duplex, which contains the .5% PPM nugget of wisdom quoted in full below.  Keep in mind that Weir seems to have invented Zeron 100.

2.WEIR MATERIALS, Guidelines for Welding, ZERON 100
Back Purging:- When welding Zeron 100, it is recommended that commercial purity argon is used to displace the air behind the joint. The oxygen content of the resulting argon/air mixture must be monitored and controlled to ensure that sufficient nitrogen is retained in the backing gas “mixture’ in order to inhibit loss of nitrogen from the weld pool. In practice the oxygen level of this mixture should be controlled at approx 0.5% (5000ppm) oxygen monitored at the start of the welding sequence. In this way, a positive partial pressure of nitrogen is maintained behind the joint thus preventing nitrogen loss from the root bead, whilst the oxidation produced remains acceptable. Passes subsequent to the root pass can be made with minimum oxygen contents.
The backing gas composition should be monitored at the joint line using a portable oxygen monitor immediately prior to starting or re-starting welding in order that consistency can be maintained. Adhesive tape low in sulphur and chloride is used around the open joint seam, and the tape should be removed progressively during the welding sequence.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 06-05-2013 00:28 Edited 06-05-2013 00:31
That is exactly what I was thinking fschweighardt!

This sentence really clarifies the source of the Oxygen...

The oxygen content of the resulting argon/air mixture must be monitored and controlled to ensure that sufficient nitrogen is retained in the backing gas “mixture’ in order to inhibit loss of nitrogen from the weld pool.

Somebody got their P's and Q's mixed up for sure!:eek::roll::lol::wink::cool:

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By fschweighardt (***) Date 06-05-2013 00:30
I fool around with duplex some, and I heard about this master plan on the .5% O2 somewhere.  Never really looked into it much because it sounds pretty far out.
Parent - - By 99205 (***) Date 06-05-2013 02:11
Having a slight understanding of how Stainless Steel interacts in an oxygen depleted environment, this O2 thing makes some sense to me.
Parent - - By fschweighardt (***) Date 06-05-2013 03:42
I can't really get my head around it.

I am not a SS guru, and I can't even keep track of my own company's R&D papers, but I have never heard of the practice, and I am not aware of any papers/experiments/articles with data suggesting that this practice will improve corrosion resistance.

I am however quite aware of a number of documents that state that heat tint can lead to excessive corrosion, due to the Cr depleted area right under the tint.
http://www.assda.asn.au/component/rsblog/view/18-ensure-corrosion-resistance-and-cleanability
http://www.nickelinstitute.org/en/TechnicalLiterature/Reprint/HeatTintsonStainlessSteelscancauseCorrosionProblems_14050_.aspx
http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=2
http://mobile.euro-inox.org/map/heat_tint/EN_heat_tint.php

We shall see
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 06-05-2013 04:23
That Australian link (first one out of the 3 listed) sure does spell it out when warning of the use of O2 with N as part of the backing gas and it is especially prevalent when using orbital welding to join high purity tubing... For example:

"If a consumable is used it must be at least as corrosion resistant as the tube or pipe material. Otherwise, the narrow weld could corrode rapidly if the tube was used in a corrosive environment. Purge gas must be dry and is normally argon, although low oxygen nitrogen can be used (even for duplex tubing). However, if there is excessive leakage into the arc, then phase balances can be disturbed and cause either cracking, poor toughness or lower corrosion resistance."

So the results are just the opposite of what one would desire when welding DS Steel & SDS Steel if one would include low amounts of Oxygen as part of the purging gas mixture if the joint and purged area surrounding the joint is leaking while welding and the same goes for low amounts of N which in itself doesn't make sense either since one would want a Nitrogen rich atmosphere as the purging/backing gas in order to prevent N loss from welding... I have enjoyed this thread and I appreciate your posts fschweighardt.:lol::cool:

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By MRWeldSoCal (***) Date 06-05-2013 15:29
I have worked with many grades of SS through my welding career and this super duplex is quite different in many ways.  But the chrome content is super high... about 28%  even the elongation percent we had to calculate for the bend tests was 34% which is quite a bit.  The welds on this stuff its buttery and nice.  Im trying to find the information I was given for you all to read, but so far I cant find it.  I have the paper work from ROLLED ALLOYS who is the material manufacturer.  Whats crazy is our order is so big that they actually had to create a new batch of zeron100 just for this project.. the pipe and plate all have the same heat #'s as well as some of the filler metals.  I will keep you all posted and hopefully have something for you later today

Weld It UP
Jordan
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 06-05-2013 03:49 Edited 06-05-2013 03:57
Here's another article...

Shielding and Backing Gas Pure argon (Ar) shielding and backing gases can create weldments with sufficient corrosion resistance.

However, N loss is not uncommon to a depth of 0.5mm from the surface of the weld. To correct the phase balance and improve corrosion resistance of the weld, it is beneficial to have additions of 1-2% N in the Ar shielding and 90% N and 10% hydrogen(H) in the backing gas. Nitrogen contents above 2% in the shielding gas can cause degradation of the tungsten electrode for GTAW processes.

The addition of H to the shielding gas is not recommended as it may cause H absorption in the weld.
Back purging should be maintained on the joint until at least 6mm of weld metal thickness has been deposited.
The oxygen content of the back purged volume should not exceed 0.25 (2500ppm).

Since DSS have relatively high chromium contents and relatively low thermal expansion, an oxide scale appearing as an oxide tint is produced during welding that is typically thin and difficult to remove. The appearance and amount of heat-tint produced during welding can be minimized with low levels of oxygen (below0.25%) in the  shielding and backing gases, with minimal moisture in the backing gas, and with limiting contaminants on the surface prior to welding. Hydrogen in the Ar backing gas can adversely affect the appearance of heat tint, and the base metal’s surface finish. Shielding gases suitable for the various gas shielded processes are listed in Table 5.

Table 5.    Shielding gas general recommendations.

GTAW      99.996%Ar, Ar+2%N 2, Ar+5%N2

GMAW     Ar+1%O2, Ar+30%He+1%O2, Ar+2%CO2, Ar+15%He+2%CO2

FCAW      Ar+1%O2, Ar+20%CO2, Ar+2%CO2

PAW        99.996% Argon

There's another Table 6. which covers DSS and SDSS consumable specifications.

I'm not going to add the filler metal recommendations because they can be found in the very same article as a .pdf here:

http://stainless-steel-world.net/pdf/SSW_DEC07_fluor_LR.pdf

Well, that's it for now.:lol:

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-05-2013 14:49
There are new things to learn every day.

Sometimes the  threads take a different turn, but there is always good information to glean from the discussions.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By MRWeldSoCal (***) Date 06-05-2013 16:24
Now were starting to get an issue with CJP- 

The welds look clean but are stepped in on the groove just a pinch, maybe .05...  I know they have to be completely through but i cant seem to get them to stay full penn.  

We are running 5CFM constantly and the oxygen sensor reads from .27-.49 % oxygen content.  The fusion is there but the CJP is fully fused at the inside edge.

I think the problem is that I dont have an actual vent for the gas to leave, its just moving past whichever weld is being made and the rest is taped off with aluminum tape..  should I be making a designated vent at the top to make for zero pressure against the weld???
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-05-2013 16:31
Hello Jordan;

We have used a magnahelic to equalize the pressure inside the pipe with the atmospheric pressure. It keeps the weld from "blowing out" and producing root concavity.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By MMyers (**) Date 06-05-2013 17:21 Edited 06-05-2013 17:32
From my post above:

"For your application, I'd continue with taping the dams, making sure to close any other hole you can find (leaving a small vent hole is fine, I usually use a 1/4" dia hole in the dam opposing my purge tube location)."

I usually then cover the hole with fiberglass heat tape, and slit an X in it with a knife.  That allows gas to escape which limits pressure while maintaining a good purge.

That aside, 5 CFH is alot considering the small volume you're purging.  I've been known to run the flow meter down till the ball is just bouncing on the small output hole in the meter.  Find what works and put it in the procedure.
Parent - - By MRWeldSoCal (***) Date 06-05-2013 19:34
so I ran the test just like you said and i used a clear cap on one side so i could see in why my welder worked... I got the purge to work perfectly and we are on track now... all it needed was a little vent to relieve the pressue but now the CJP is A OK.   Thanks for the help everyone!

-J
Parent - - By fschweighardt (***) Date 06-06-2013 00:31
Is the bead pretty clean on the ID?  You are running 2700-4900 PPM O2 and unknown levels of H20.  Your backing gas is 2% N2, so not sure what your overall N2 levels are.  If you stick around 2%, you will be fine.  Lots of guys are fine with 100% Ar, and some do 100% N2 with success.  Even a few running a few % of H2, balance N2.

Now that you are hiting profiles, are you gonna have to check for ferrite #, PREN/G48, tensiles, bends, the whole bit?
Parent - By MRWeldSoCal (***) Date 06-06-2013 14:22
the ferrite numbers are above regualr average, we passed the G48 already, passed tensiles and bend tests already for each of the 3 processes we are doing...

We have a Fluxcore stainless FCAW-G, a Solid wire Pulse Spray Transfer GMAW-P, and two GTAW one with argon only and one argon nitrogen, all tests have an argon-nitrogen backing as requested by the alloy manufacturer.

we came to a conclusion on our purging problem, we ended up using SS caps and had a vent hole drilled in one. Put tape over it and cut an x in the tape.  Flow is balanced now and we are not getting the push back we were originally getting.

Weld it up!
Jordan
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Purging Issues with 98% Argon/ 2% Nitrogen

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