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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / 2G test position?
- - By Quality0537 (*) Date 06-17-2013 12:04
I am looking for some clarification or opinions on position of welder qualification testing.

Specifically is there anything that allows rotation of the face or to elevate inclination of the the axis of a welder qualification test weld within the limits as shown in figure 4.1?

It appears that figure 4.1 and the variables as shown there are indicating the qualification range for actual production welds, and not specifically mentioned as applicable for the welder qualification test.

An example is figure 4.32 which shows an optional test plate for limited thickness - horizontal position - welder qualification. Essentially the face of these two plates appear to be in a straight up / down vertical position with the axis of the weld to be flat across from 90 to 270 degrees. C4.2.2 states "the qualification tests are especially designed to determine the ability of the welders, welding operators and tack welders to produce sound welds by following the WPS".

I personally do not believe that the tabulation of position of groove welds as shown in figure 4.1 applies during an actual welder qualification test, but we have some difference of interpretation with others who feel that they can essentially lay the Horizontal test plates back down towards the flat position - rotating the face of the weld or alter the inclination of the plates/ welds  within the angles indicated in figure 4.1.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-17-2013 13:47
The figures shown in AWS D1.1 are to determine the test position required based on the welding positions used in production. If the production weld is being made out of position (anything other than flat) the angle of inclination and rotation of the production weld are used to determine whether the qualification test is required to be in the flat, horizontal, vertical, or overhead test position.

The only test positions that have tolerances shown in AWS D1.1 are for pipe. In the case of pipe tests, the tolerances are plus or minus 15 degrees from the stated test position. That is not the case for fillet weld tests using either pipe/tube or plate. Tests using grooved plates do not depict tolerances as do the figures for pipe and tube (in AWS D1.1). As such, my understanding is that the test positions are flat with the face and axis of the weld parallel to the horizon, horizontal with the axis of the weld parallel to the horizon and the face of the weld perpendicular to the earth, and so on. I use a spirit level on the test samples and the bubble must be between the lines before the weld starts the test. 

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By 04110721 Date 08-27-2013 20:38
4.3.4 Position of Welds staes "All welds shall be classified as flat, horizontal, vertical, and overhead, in conformance with the definitions shown in Figures 4.1 and 4.2". Since this subclause falls under Common Requirements for WPS and Welding Personnel Performance Qualification, then it is acceptable to position the test plate for either WPS or Personnel Qualification as long as it is in conformance with the definitions shown in Figures 4.1 and 4.2.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 08-27-2013 21:36
Is that a question or a statement?

Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 08-28-2013 04:12
While your interpretation may be technically correct, if I wanted someone to pass a qualification test for me at my shop vertical, then I want it vertical.  NOT 15° over to the easy side from vertical.  Show me what you got, not how much you can cheat gravity.  If anything, you want it off vertical?  Lay it over so that you are slightly overhead.  Why don't we ever see a welder do that?  Normally because he isn't good enough and just wants to pass a test so he can start collecting a pay check.

Now, having said that, if they just grab the plate, tack it in place and start welding and I see it only slightly off from a 90° vertical, I'm not going to complain.  Like Al said, within the lines on the level.

But, there is a simple way of deciding this.  I give a WPS to all taking a performance exam.  It will state the position in degrees and not with any tolerances.  If they can't follow directions, good bye.  It also states process, electrode, gas and volume if applicable, volts/amps or wire feed speed, etc.  Can they read and follow the WPS?  Root opening, bevel angle, groove angle, and all other parameters need to be within my tolerances.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 08-28-2013 13:47
You and Al make an awesome tag team...
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 08-29-2013 04:25
No argument from me on that. :cool:

Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 08-29-2013 14:50

TAG...Your it.

Well...okay, here goes.

Clause 4.2 that seems to be getting attention is "Common Requirements", not "Mandatory", or "Only", but Common.  It is also, as other poster quoted, a classification of weld positions.  Test assymbly positions are then referenced to 4.3, 4.4, 4.5, & 4.6.  As noted by Al, these only have tolerances for any position to vary from the pure according to 4.4 for Pipe or Tubing.  Nothing on the plates.  If your production welds are going to be in positions as calculated according to Figures 4.1 & 4.2 then the qualifying plates SHALL be in position according to Figures 4.3-6 with no mention of 'tilting' on the figures unless it is tubing.

Now, you actually want to be at Clause 4.18 General under Part C  Performance Qualification for welder quals anyway, not clause 4.2 which is only a reference of 'Common' guidelines.  At 4.18 we are told "The performance qualification tests required by this code are specifically devised tests to determine a welder's, welding operator's, or tack welder's ability to produce sound welds."  And then it goes on to say, "The qualification tests are not intended to be used as guides for welding or tack welding during actual construction."  These tests are to prove what the welder can do in ANY circumstance, not what he can do if able to roll a piece to an easier position.

BUT, now let's continue in the Part C section.  Look at 4.20 & 21 as well as the entire rest of Part C.  4.21 tells us that the tests SHALL follow a WPS applicable to the test required.  Mine is.  And it will have a joint detail and all other info as required and specify the tolerances allowable.  Notice also the Figures that are referenced for qualification tests.  Not 4.3-6, but 4.23-32.

Bottom line: It may be technically correct to allow a slight tilt to a test.  But why would I want to?  As I already stated, if I am testing for my shop, NO WAY.  I want to know what you got.  If I am testing for someone else, I have to stand behind the person I just attested to passing, on your behalf, for a  welding job.  I want to give them and you the best possible assurance that they can do the job.

Now, I cannot go behind another inspector and say that someone is not qualified because they let them weld the plates at an angle.  BUT, I won't do it and don't believe it is proper and applicable to our job responsibility.  I think the code backs me up on this.  I intend to do a little more research on a couple of items.  But the tilt is out as far as I am concerned.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 08-29-2013 16:54
This subject has been discussed in previous posts. Not that any unanimous conclusion drawn, but the majority seemed to agree the test position was determined from the actual production position based on the figures 4.1 and 4.2.

Does this warrant an inquiry to the D1 Structural Committee? Maybe so, but it may be a while before an interpretation is issued. I'll leave it to someone else to file a technical inquiry. I have four or five in the pipeline already.

My only advise on this matter is to make sure you read all the applicable clauses before formulating a position. A mistake can be very expensive to remedy if a problem is discovered after the fact.

If your goal is to pass as many welders as possible, it may be beneficial to "tilt" the coupons, but it simply doesn't pass the "smell test."

Best regards - Al
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / 2G test position?

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