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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Clearing Soot
- - By Harman (*) Date 07-05-2013 18:44
I am MIG welding a hydraulic tank and while I weld flange on the tank, the welding soot deposits on the inside of the tank (Which is inaccessible by hand). As per the functional requirement, the tank should be free from Soot, Spatter and any thing which can contaminate the liquid inside the tank. Do you have suggestions, how can I clean the tank ? (At present I fill the tank with water and flush the water but it doesn't seems to be working good)
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 07-05-2013 18:54
Muriatic acid, acetone, some degreasers such as simple green.  Especially with the hydraulic fluid present the soot will be very oily and hard to get out with pure water.  It will require something that can cut the grease/oil film and remove the soot.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By Harman (*) Date 07-05-2013 19:09
Inside part of tank is inaccessible, should I pressurize these liquids and use them ? (In such case, can they be used again)
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 07-05-2013 19:44
Now that's an interesting concept...never considered pressurizing them... don't know what you would use to do that with Muriatic, it would just eat it up.  If I remember correctly, muriatic is a form of Hydrocholoric acid. 

The acetone...same scenario basically, it would eat up anything you ran it through. 

How big is this tank?  Can't you put it in and 'slosh' it around and pour it out?  Then rinse good.

No, I would not suggest trying to keep them nor using them again.  Mix small quantities, use as needed and discard.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By Harman (*) Date 07-05-2013 20:04
It's might be difficult to put and slosh it. It's a big tank, around 34" x 20 " x 12" (weights over 200 pounds) and it has multiple small tanks inside a big tank. I am worried if all the acid is not flushed (because of the profile of tank) then it will eat up all the material. Presently I am using HRPL A 36 material.  Any suggestions if I change material (Make it cold rolled), wire or gas, will that be of any of these help?

Thanks again Brent.
Parent - - By electrode (***) Date 07-07-2013 10:07
Sir,

apart from what has been said already on your topic. There is, and no offence intended saying that, rather little technical information content in your post(s).

That is. What are the boundary conditions of your welding application? You know, it's difficult for me to understand something connected to welding or to a particular welding application, as long as the "whole story" hasn't been told. The gentlemen who did so well provide you with their advice and estimations on how to overcome your issues may have been right. However, due to lack of detailed technical information and despite their certainly purest intentions, they might even be wrong.

I myself am not the one who tries providing advice based upon vague speculations. Short. I would tend to avoid issues, i.e. the "soot", whatever that means, before being faced with the need of fixing the issues, i.e. in your case to "clearing" it afterwards from the tank interior.

However, before knowing how to avoid something, one should know the boundary conditions basically leading to its generation. As a consequence, some simple questions came to my mind.

Your original post contains as follows:

1.  Quote: "I am MIG welding (…)"

•  You use to use the term "MIG Welding". I'm asking does this refer to e.g. British Standard BS 499-1:2009? You know, it’s always hard for me, coming from beyond the pond, to not confuse the presently valid AWS terminology, say Gas Metal Arc Welding (GMAW), with the European one based upon the differentiation between MIG (Metal Inert Gas, i.e. an inert gas is used for shielding) and MAG (Metal Active Gas, i.e. it is an active gas employed). Short, I would correlate MIG to non-ferrous parent materials rather than to ferrous, say "Carbon or Mild Steel" Grades. Let’s hypothesise the tank is made of an aluminium alloy parent material, which of course can be joined using MIG welding. Then the "soot" (in my understanding this strange "dark matter" often connected to using the MIG process for aluminium alloys containing particularly magnesium) might understandably arise from the critical combination of process (MIG) and material (parent- and/or filler metal). Then, in order to avoid that, I would tend to ask: "Why not switching the welding process from MIG to TIG (GTAW) using alternating current?" That by the way would also beneficially contribute to meet the requirement (quote): "...tank should be free from (…) Spatter (…)" since TIG (GTAW) actually does rather not produce any of these.

2.  Quote: "Presently I am using HRPL A 36 material."

•  I ask your forgiveness for being unaware of what "HRPL" means. There are too many strange acronyms around nowadays and I admit to literally not understand all of these. However, I seem to interpret "A36" being some sort of steel. Maybe similar to 'ASTM A36'? If that is so, well, then at least my first question above regarding non-ferrous material MIG Welding has already been answered. However, in conjunction to this and always intending to clarify the boundary conditions that primarily may cause the "soot" to arise, I should tend to ask: "Have you ever considered to "purge" the tank after adequately cleaning the parts prior to welding, e.g. using argon?"

I may be wrong, but I suppose that at least might relieve you from ending up with greater amounts of oxide layers at the inside, that might "attract" the "soot" or may drive/cause the "soot" to adhere to. In combination with adequately adjusting the welding conditions, i.e. the process parameters used (e.g. reduce "heat input" for the first pass(es)) that might at least improve somewhat your current situation.

But of course and besides of all I said; as Professor Crisi from Brazil correctly was stating: "Now, if by "soot" you mean another type of material, I'd like to know what it is."

I tend to agree. It would be interesting to know what the "soot", in your understanding, actually is.

In short. As long as we are not becoming aware of some further details that make us understanding the surroundings of your particular application, as long it's like taking a stab in the dark or - simply hard to advise.

Anyway, I'm one of those who use to say: "A stitch in time saves nine."
That is. I would tend to prevent the "soot" even to arise before being faced with the need of clearing it from the tank.

Thank you.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 07-07-2013 13:26
Very well put and asked there Electrode. 

I 'assumed' some things from my own personal experiences having repaired many 'hydraulic' tanks in the past without having first taken the precautions of cleaning the tank and getting what I percieve as a similar result of 'soot' from the hydraulic fluid burning as the welding was taking place.  And I know that this often happens as the tanks are not always removed from the equipment they are attached to or are so large it is very difficult to do any kind of purging before effecting the repair.  Not that that makes it right and we are always better off to completely clean and prep our intended welding area.

My experience was that it (soot) was fairly easy to remove with my afore mentioned methods.  But, as you and the good professor have brought to light, there are definitely other questions that could and probably should have been asked.

Have a Great Day,  Brent

PS:  we most assuredly enjoyed our trip to England and Ireland.  Our time around Bradford, Harrogate, York, from the English Channel to the Irish Sea was most informative, relaxing, and beautiful.
Parent - By electrode (***) Date 07-13-2013 11:37
Thank you, Brent.

Also, for the addendum on the UK.

Nice to see that your journey proved enjoyable to you.
Parent - - By MMyers (**) Date 07-08-2013 13:19
Muratic acid is 33% HCl.  I wouldn't advise putting it inside a tank (or near anything - the vapors are corrosive) unless you're willing to trade soot for corrosion.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 07-08-2013 14:48
But, when diluted to the levels used to clean shop floors, swimming pools (they sell it pre-diluted for these applications),  and prepping steel for painting, etc, you don't have the same corrosive problem.  Though, it is important to remember that all acids are corrosive, some are just slower about completing their work. Plus, you have to have access to rinsing so that you remove any residue after the cleaning.  Even the water normally used to dilute, rinse, cleanse, surfaces is slightly acidic. 

Do not breathe vapours, is very sound advice for any cleaning products. 

But, the main point here has become one more of proper prep before welding and not having to clean soot after welding.  The hydraulic fluid residue causing the soot should be able to be adequately removed before repairing the part.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By MMyers (**) Date 07-08-2013 16:56 Edited 07-08-2013 16:59
Dilution is a minor detail that was originally omitted, hence my comment.  I often use dilute Muratic acid as an enchant for macros.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 07-08-2013 17:32
True Mike.  And it should have been mentioned as who knows who might read that and not understand that you can buy it in pretty concentrated form, which is how I personally store it.  And, I have also used it for macro-etching at higher levels than what I use it for cleaning.

Whatever level you use it, keep it off your body and clothes and don't breathe the vapours.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By MMyers (**) Date 07-08-2013 18:20
I wholeheartedly second your safety recommendations.  I find the vapors to be the most deceiving part of working with the stuff.  The problem being that once you figure out they're dangerous, it's already too late.
Parent - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 07-05-2013 20:42
If the word "soot" has in this case the same meaning than the word "soot" that boiler operators are used to remove from their boilers, I   disagree from what Welderbrent has said.
Soot's chemical formula is pure carbon, and so is insoluble in liquids. Don't attempt to use acetone, muriatic acid, kerosene etc. etc. because you'll waste your time.
Why don't you try the same method boiler operators use to remove the soot from their boilers? Low pressure steam, or as an alternate, compressed air. That's how they clean the inside surface of the boilers from soot. The steam or compressed air should be able to escape  freely from your tank.
Neither steam nor compressed air dissolve soot. They just remove it because they rub strongly the surface where soot is deposited.
Then, they carry out the soot when the leave the container.
Now, if by "soot" you mean another type of material, I'd like to know what it is.
Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-07-2013 01:03
This is interesting. I don't have a clue how to clean it unless you could put some steel shot into the tanks and tumble them. Then there's the problem of getting the steel shot out again.

Al
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 07-07-2013 18:27
I think the "Fail" with this, is that most do not realize the sophistication involved with building a(n) hydraulic system. This often falls back on to the purchaser and or the fabricator who design/commission/bid/ and accepted the project. "It's just a tank"!!!!
This will work just fine as long as you are willing to absorb the financial impact related to the down time involved to change PROPER filters (3 micron? dependent upon tolerances of the seals and related doohickies downstream in the system). Usually these involve a combination of mechanical and chemical cleaning processes prior to commissioning.
I remember from Fluid Dynamics class that a "used filter" is a better filter... to an extent until the bypass system kicks in and overrides all the filtration.
Carbon is not so much an aggressive abrasive as it is a filter clogger.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Clearing Soot

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