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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / WPS and Welder for the joint between tubular and plate
- - By quangviet42 Date 07-15-2013 15:02
Dear you all,
Can you help me!

Following Annex K Term and Definition:
Tubular Connection: A connection in the portion of a structure that contains two or more intersecting member, at least one of which is a tubular member and

Following Table 4.1 WPS qualification - Production welding position qualified & table 4.10 Welder, welding operator - Production welding position qualified

I understanding that, the WPS for the joint between tubular (OD1372x50Thk) and Plate 50Thk at right angle(CJP) need to be qualified at 6GR position,  Also the welder applied for this joint must be qualified at 6GR position. Are these right?

Thanks & Best regards

Viet
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-15-2013 16:44
Are you welding with or without backing?

Al
Parent - - By quangviet42 Date 07-15-2013 17:15 Edited 07-15-2013 18:06
Welding without backing or backgouging and joint design as attachment

Viet
Attachment: Drawing1.pdf (5k)
Parent - - By quangviet42 Date 07-16-2013 00:13
Who help me answer above question?
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-16-2013 03:26
That would cover you.

Al
Parent - - By quangviet42 Date 07-16-2013 12:38 Edited 07-16-2013 12:57
My friend,

I understood that the WPS & Welder qualified at 6GR position covered the joint which I mention above, my contractor they say need not qualified WPS & Welder at 6GR position for those joints. They say that those joints is 4G position therefore they will be qualified the WPS & Welder at 6G position.  My contractor is right?

Thank you very much
Viet
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 07-16-2013 13:28
quangviet42,
The joint in question is a single bevel without backing.
IMHO it does not require 6GR qualification.
I would say the joint in question is actually 2G - you cannot have 4G with a tubular member (unless it is rotated).

Again, IMHO a 6G qualification would cover WPS and Welder for the joint in question.
Hope that helps,
Regards,
Shane
Parent - - By quangviet42 Date 07-16-2013 15:15
Dear Mr. Shane,

The joint which I mention is tubular in vertical weld to cap plate (cap plate on top of tubular) and joint preparation is SB, welding without backing or backgouging, Please see the attachment for more information. For me, I do not think the position is 2G and,
As per Table 4.1 AWS D1.1 WPS qualification - Production welding position qualified & table 4.10 Welder, welding operator - Production welding position qualified. I considered this joint is pipe (tubular) production welding, is not plate production welding and
As per Annex K AWS D1.1 Term and Definition, the AWS definition for butt joint is a joint between two members aligned approximately in the same plane and 
Tubular Connection: A connection in the portion of a structure that contains two or more intersecting member, at least one of which is a tubular member
There are  some reasons above therefore need to qualified WPS & Welder at 6GR position for this joint.
I says correct or not?

Best regards
Viet
Attachment: Drawing1.pdf (5k)
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 07-17-2013 13:16
Viet,
I am struggling to help on this one as my area of expertise is ASME IX but hoping some of the D1.1 gurus (Al, Brent, John W etc) might jump in and help.
Firstly, the joint is 2G, not 4G but that still doesn't help you at all.
Al has mentioned numerous times that welders must comply with specific welder qualification tests nominated in D1.1.
A 6G will not replicate what you are doing as even having a single bevel with the flat preparation on the top will require you to catch (fuse) both internal edges of the joint.
The 6GR set-up has a flat preparation with a smaller ID than the bevelled preparation so this is meant to replicate welding a single bevel onto a flat surface (which is your situation)
However,
The restriction ring is meant to replicate the tight confines of a T, K joint as part of the T,Y,K requirements.
You have no access restrictions on what I would consider to be an easy joint to weld so not sure why you would have to perform a welder qualification with a restriction ring.
C'mon Al - help me out here ?
Cheers,
Shane
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 07-17-2013 13:33
I agree with Shane in that a 6G or 6GR is not replicating the joint that the welder will see. I also agree with Shane in that the welding position for that groove weld is 2G, now if that was a fillet weld (Tube to Plate) then it would be a 4F....but the weld material in this case is being placed in a horizontal goove position not overhead. One more thing to note is that I don't believe that this is a T,Y, K joint in that it is not tube to tube joint, but tube to plate. Ie.. no different than adding a cap plate or a base plate to a tubular column.

Maybe Al or others will chime in with their take on this.
Parent - By waccobird (****) Date 07-17-2013 13:35
quangviet42

I believe the only weld that can be considered cjp without backing or back gouging to sound weld from the other side is one qualified 6GR.

I know that is how I had to work it to appease engineers on a column CJP (Tube - Plate) Base Plate without backing or back gouging.

Hope this Helps more than Hurts

Marshall
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-17-2013 14:14 Edited 07-17-2013 14:17
The 6GR qualification provides the most breadth of any performance qualification test required by AWS. With the exception of a butt joint between tubulars, it is the only test offered for open root groove welds.

I agree with the person posting the inquiry that the welder will be covered if he passes the 6GR performance test.

It is rare that the performance qualification test replicates what will be done in production. As an example: fabricators weld CJP grooved joints day in and day out using a back gouge operation before welding the second side, yet, there is no performance test required by AWS that includes a back gouge operation.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By quangviet42 Date 07-17-2013 15:05
Thank you all so much
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / WPS and Welder for the joint between tubular and plate

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