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Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 07-26-2013 20:14
Henry,

Thanks for the additional names previously missed.  They are truly well respected and knowledgeable people.

Thank you for the compliments aimed at me as well.  While I may stand amongst the giants, I don't necessarily consider myself to be one.  Being able to bring some thoughts together out of the codes and present it in a way that others can comprehend and apply does not require that one be one of the greats.  I rely on the knowledge and experiences of others and try to formulate accurate translations of their work. 

It can be said that that in itself places one in a position of note, but I feel so below the curve when reading so many of you.  I have been at this a long time but wish I had done a lot more at an early age to take myself to the next level.  I do acknowledge that I have learned alot since introduced to this forum.  There have been many who have been there to hash out the questions and give valuable insight.  It is nice to see that others see a change, hopefully an improvement, in my own as well as others abilities because of a desire to learn.  My wife has always called me an 'Informatin Sponge'.  I read everything I can get my hands on.  But this forum has been even more valuable than many of my books.  You guys are a vast resource that can hardly be replaced as too many will never have the practical background to backup all their book learning.  And many of you, as well as myself, are passing off the scene from being active participants in this trade.  Thankfully, the resources of this forum will forever be available in the 'Search' function here.  I only wish more would use it. 

Anyway Henry, it has been so good to see you able to remain a part of this forum of late.  Keep fighting.  Thanks for all you have done in my life.  Your challenges have been constructive and appreciated.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 07-27-2013 02:59
Henry,

I didn't originally post that link, I believe electrode was the original poster of that particular link. It opens fine on both of my home computers and also my work PC and my work laptop! I know others have opened it OK as well with no problem. (It may take a minute or two to load if you are on a slow connection). Maybe the problem is at your end?

As it is an AWS database paper, I would have thought you of all people would have been able to find it quite easily if you had experienced any problems with electrode's or my link to it. It is a very interesting paper and well worth reading!

                                                     "The Effects of Minor Elements on the Welding Characteristics of Stainless Steel"
                                                                           Sulfur, oxygen and deoxidant contents determine
                                                                      penetration, while the silicon-to-aluminum ratio controls
                                                                                            slagging characteristics
                                                                                                 BY B. POLLARD

The fact that the second link which was originally posted by Shane I believe, seems also to have escaped you, granted the paper appears to have been written by someone not from the USA but it was published and presented by an American organisation, in America. Also, if you check the references, most all are from USA sources. Anyhow, moot point...........more importantly-seriously, are we as a forum, only accepting data generated by certain chosen countries on here now as reference to theories and debate? I find that outrageous.

Quote:
"Well Al,I beg to differ from your observation partly because I'm of the opinion that I am pretty darn good with the use of American English as opposed to The King's English, or as opposed to Cockney, or when it comes to speaking Spanish is concerned; I prefer the Cuban/Dominican dialect as opposed to the traditional Castillian dialect spoken in most of Spain... after all, this is the "AMERICAN Welding Society and NOT The Welding Institute which some think that we should always refer to their world and just disregard the practices of how the AWS works as well as how we derive our standard definitions!
The British still haven't let go of that lousy habit they have of insisting that things should be done exclusively their way only, and have forgotten that over 200 years ago, we told them what we thought of their way of doing things by forming our own destiny and our own institutions by establishing These United States of America and even though they came real close to eradicating us during the war of 1812 yet eventually lost, they still insist on being the standard bearers of just about everything created including welding terms and definitions but then again, that is just my observation as well as my own opinion, and you know how that goes because everyone in here has one including my own!:lol::wink:
Although, there are times when one could easily notice more than one coming from certain participants.:eek::roll:"

Or is it just the TWI(UK) that is to be ostracized? I am fully aware that this is called the AWS forum, it does have a ASME section and also several other section not related to AWS?

Thanks for the history of the formation of the USA, I had forgotten how you Americans take so seriously the formation of your great country. My remark was completely made in jest, hence the "lol" after it. I have made it to most of my fellow American colleagues (and even to strangers in the local Bar) and enjoyed much humour in the debate that followed, I guess I judged you as someone who could also have a laugh about it, my mistake.(I am really shocked at the difference in our two languages given that it's all classed as English. BTW I'm not a cockney).

Quote:
"IMHO, metallurgically speaking, there are also many metals as well as alloys that have what is termed "Interstitials" which can be made up of certain elements in between their grain boundries and when the metals are coalesced in such a manner to form a weld, those interstitials may rise to the top and form what is also known as oxide layers as a result of the chemical reaction induced by the injection of heat and therefore oxidizing these interstitials (clumps of garbage elements that are not part of establishing certain mechanical properties desired when welding as well as when producing these metals and their alloys...

Henry, I would tend to disagree from my limited understanding, Interstitials are only formed in pure metals, if you are talking about interstitial elements that is? Also I'm not sure if silicon is included in this definition? Oxide formation or Slag formation also occurs in GMAW welding as has been pointed out by both myself and jwright650 (*****) Date 07-26-2013 18:07.It can be classed as an inclusion!
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 07-27-2013 09:41 Edited 07-28-2013 08:44
Quote: "interstitials are only formed in pure metals..." Oh really? Then how do you explain this link as well as the fact that residual Ti is found at times in the slag/oxide islands previously mentioned??? Back to your assumption that interstitials only form in pure metals... What's your opinion of this abstract's second paragraph that states clearly this:

Please observe and read the page over again to make sure that that is not the case!

"It is well established that the mechanical properties of Ti and it's alloys are sensitive to the presence of interstitial solutes, such as O,C, N and H... There are two types of interstitial sites, namely octahedral and tetrahedral, in a hcp crystal sch as Ti..." The paragraph goes on to mention Ti and it's alloys again towards the end of that paragraph which leads me to ask you this question... What is the definition of alloys as you understand the term and as it applies to metals in general??? 

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01418610208235676#preview

Here's a patent regarding the reduction of interstitial elements found in cast alloy steels:

http://www.google.com/patents/EP2401410A1?cl=en

And this excerpt from a book titled "Physical Properties of Materials for Engineers, 2nd Edition, especially page 367... Notice the list of interstitial alloys in table 10-1?:

http://books.google.com/books?id=G1i8tzrJ1nMC&pg=PA366&lpg=PA366&dq=interstitial+elements&source=bl&ots=3L7leA3K3p&sig=YROnlmnP_pG3KOv5dvPhHLoojPc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hZzzUc3yKofBqAGS8YCgDg&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBTgU#v=onepage&q=interstitial%20elements&f=false

There's more but, these are more than enough to dispute your opinion that "interstitials are only formed in pure metals."

Well, now that we have clarified that, let me answer your other statements...

1) the paper you're referring to was presented to that American organization... The references in that paper are mostly German 46.00...

2) "are we as a forum, only accepting data generated by certain chosen countries on here now as reference to theories and debate?" Absolutely NOT!!! Where do get that ASSumption 46.00???:confused::surprised::roll:

3) "Or is it just the TWI(UK) that is to be ostracized?" 46.00, Nobody, organization, and no one is being banished, excluded, or ostracized in here!!! Again, where are you reading these ASSumptions???:surprised::confused::roll:

4) Question; Do you ever reread what you have typed  in here before you post it??? IMHO, I think you need to practice that religiously so that we all can avoid these "Misunderstandings as well as misinterpretations of what is written here... The sure way to practice is to stop skimming through the posts so that you completely digest, and absorb the entire post as it relates to the particular thread you're following...

5) I didn't say you are a Cockney...:roll::surprised::lol:

6) I already answered the question regarding interstitials...:roll::lol:

7) Yes, I know that also 46.00.

Respectfully to most,
Henry
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 07-27-2013 14:34
Another.:wink::twisted::eek::lol::cool: book for anyone interested in reading more of interstitial elements, solutes and compounds or simply expressed as variations of interstitial content a well as variations of substitutional content, tramp elements found in HIS, Structure, Properties, Manufacture, Assessment, and Pros & Cons of HIS etc.,
titled "High Interstitial Stainless Austenitic Steels." Excellent book IMHO!!!:yell::twisted::smile::lol::wink::cool: Check it out even if it's not the complete book itself

http://books.google.com/books?id=9sQTkCiVrnkC&pg=PA24&lpg=PA24&dq=interstitial+elements&source=bl&ots=5OxvgWlnti&sig=i-t6Ep-EQLvv6qbnfalaShJydlc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hZzzUc3yKofBqAGS8YCgDg&ved=0CE8Q6AEwCDgU#v=onepage&q=interstitial%20elements&f=false

http://miuse.mie-u.ac.jp/bitstream/10076/3996/1/AA008163410180004.PDF

http://www.steel.org/en/sitecore/content/Autosteel_org/Web%20Root/Research/AHSS%20Data%20Utilization/IF.aspx

The Behavior and Properties of Refractory Metals:

http://books.google.com/books?id=IzqsAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA16&lpg=PA16&dq=interstitial+elements&source=bl&ots=YG_IZxzX3_&sig=B1728_-qoZED-ZskV7obvINIu88&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1b_zUaHTI4W4qAHYmYDYAg&ved=0CC4Q6AEwATge#v=onepage&q=interstitial%20elements&f=false

Anyone interested in Space exploration?:

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?Nm=4294873645|Subject%20Terms|INTERSTITIAL%20ATOM||4294952111|Subject%20Terms|INTERSTITIALS&N=0

These articles are from Oz:

http://trove.nla.gov.au/result?q=subject%3A%22INTERSTITIAL+ELEMENTS%22

Here's an interesting patent illustration from the USPTO (United states Patent and Trademark Office):

http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/patog/week42/OG/html/1383-3/US08286692-20121016.html

Full text of the patent:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=8286692.PN.&OS=PN/8286692&RS=PN/8286692

This one is from my old friend, Harry Bhadeshia along with Robert Loneycombe from Cambridge U titled STEELS - Microstructure and Properties:

http://books.google.com/books?id=6MtuBqok43MC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

Finally, I'll include this book into the post to finish... STEELS: Processing, Structure, and Performance By George Krauss,
University Emeritus Professor of Metallurgy @ The Colorado School of Mines:

http://books.google.com/books?id=59yWLw0HlzMC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

Enjoy the books!:yell::twisted::eek::lol::wink::roll::cool:

Respectfully to most,
Henry
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-30-2013 00:28
This I like.

Constructive.

Al
Parent - By 46.00 (****) Date 07-27-2013 23:48
do you know what 46.00 means as you like to use it quite a lot?
Parent - By electrode (***) Date 07-27-2013 10:54 Edited 07-27-2013 10:56
46.00,

Forgive me starting my response with something apart from the topic. But I could even have a closer look at some of the recent posts thus, it's a need to me to drop some few words in this connection.

I have to admit. It was Lawrence who had made me re-consider and inspired me through his friendly statements in:

http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?pid=246438#pid246438

to maybe "more frequently" participate in this forum. Certainly the most forum fellow members wouldn't even care about that, however.

And, after some warpage period, I was under the impression to have made my peace gesture. Also I mean to say, that I have obeyed the AWS rules throughout. The more surprising it is, that some particular individual harshly traded insults against me; either through some sort of ludicrous censorship behaviour:

http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?pid=248623#pid248623

or some strange sort of, I would name it, indoctrination:

http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?pid=248849#pid248849

I honestly do not know, what's (exceptionally) going on here. But I do not care.

Rather it was your post(s) that had inspired me to dig deeper in to this non-trivial topic to better understand what the physical/chemical background is of all these tricky details.

Hence, back to the topic and in this conjunction also, back to 'jwright650's' input, and, apart from what we had discussed in terms of TIG (GTAW), upon which I should like to focus on hereafter.

Based upon the fact that high oxygen contents in weld metals may have a detrimental effect on the joint’s mechanical properties; I suggest to basically presuming that the weld metal should have rather low oxygen contents.

To achieve this, deoxidising elements, as already described by '803056' in a previous post, that have a higher affinity to oxygen vs. the welded parent metal (or iron) are added to e.g. the consumables or filler materials used.

Provided now that, due to intensive reaction during the liquid phase, these deoxidising elements, even such as Aluminium, Titanium, or Silicon, have formed stable but insoluble oxides, these constituents are either included (inclusions) in the solidified weld metal or, depending on several affecting parameters (e.g. crystallisation behaviour, cooling rate, …), segregated towards the weld pool surface (oxide "islands").

I'm not really sure how the forces driving the oxide particles to segregate at the bead surface can be calculated, but due to this has presumably much to do with the impact of specific viscosities being a function of time and temperature, I would not be surprised if NAVIER-STOKES equations would play an important part in this.

Anyway. It is known that e.g. adding Manganese (Mn) reinforces the impact of strong deoxidisers such as Silicon (Si). One of the reasons certainly that this elemental couple can be found in welding filler wires or wire electrodes just as stated by you in:

http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?pid=248690#pid248690

SEKIGUCHI [1] in the 1960's has investigated what's been said/described by you and, recognising this in along with his daily practice, 'jwright650'.

Finally I should like to embed this:

http://ww.aws.org/wj/supplement/WJ_1976_03_s57.pdf

Please note, forgive me but I cannot resist, the author, a really most outstanding researcher and - yes I'm on this planet in the service of welding long and happy enough for saying this - personally known to me during his active times, is English and his paper, presumably in conjunction with his PhD-Thesis, was published by… ?

[1] Sekiguchi, H. (1964), "Theory and Proposal on Steel Fusion Welding and their Applications", Nikkan Kogyo Shinbin, Tokyo.
Parent - By 46.00 (****) Date 07-27-2013 04:52
I never mentioned the state of your mind?
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 07-27-2013 10:47 Edited 07-27-2013 10:50
Back then, there were Native Americans or some folks prefer to call them indigenous peoples who migrated to North America across the land bridge now named "The Bering Straits" from North Eastern Asia, a couple or more thousands of years before any British or European ever set foot in America! And inspite of their very close and narrow escape from total genocide, they're slowly making a comeback in overall population within their native lands:yell::yell::yell::twisted::red::wink::grin::lol:

Finally, technically, they're not originally from India and, we know for the most part why they were given the the misrecognition as being known as American Indians...

So isn't it about time that they are no longer called "Indians" and instead, be known appropriately as either Native or Original Americans??? I strongly believe so!:yell::yell::yell::roll:

Respectfully to most,
Henry
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 07-27-2013 11:57
Henry,
Take your medication and go back to bed.
You are ruining the great work you do here on the forum with your personal attacks - you have sent me nasty PMs previously and I know of at least 4 other members who have received nasty PMs from you before because they had the cheek to disagree with you.
And as for emoticons - they are childish and should not be used in an adult conversation.
Regards,
Shane
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 07-27-2013 15:05 Edited 07-27-2013 15:12
Hey Shane,

Unlike other places, these emoticons are part of the forum features so if you want to complain about them then go through the appropriate channels and stop your patronizing as if you're my father ot something to that effect because every time you make comments like you just did, it only makes the resentments stronger against one another...

If you wanted to show how much an adult you are, you should have instead taken the higher ground and not express yourself like some bonehead foreman but, since you want to act like the POS that you really are then go right ahead and tattle tail all you want and keep pontificating as if you're a voice of reason (Oh and Shane, did you notice that I purposely left you off the voice of reason list I posted earlier???:yell::eek::lol::lol::twisted::roll::roll::roll::wink::cool:) Give me a break! Actually, give yourself one by going to Bangkok or Phukett and release yourself dude:lol::lol::lol:!!! You need to stop acting like some sort prude POS!:roll::eek: You don't like my version of American humor???

Well then, as they say down under - ?iss OFF!!! BTW Shane? That's some cheek you got there!!!:twisted::lol::lol::roll::roll: Now that's a personal attack because I purposely meant it for you unlike what you claim I did previously where I didn't mention anyone specific in order to educate you by showing you exactly what a personal attack looks like when it's posted in here! So make darn sure that you are precise with your accusations described as being personal that have nothing to show for in your previous post...

I mean talk about a bunch of thin skinned crybabies we have to tolerate in here these days!:twisted::lol::roll::wink: And Shane? Guess what? I just woke up!:eek::lol::roll:
Thanks for the entertainment dude! ROTFLMFAO:eek::lol::wink::cool:!!!

Henry
Parent - By 46.00 (****) Date 07-27-2013 15:17
Actually I think you'll find that Shane was on your self appreciation list!
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 07-27-2013 15:05 Edited 07-27-2013 15:12
"I really appreciate the level to which each of the main posters here has taken this topic.  Not to mention the level headed way any disagreement has been handled. 

While everything I have ever been taught originally led me to 'side' with Al and his contribution, as Shane, with all of the additional information here I have had to take a serious look at how I view slag and other deposits left on the surface of welds by ANY process. 

It is indeed very informative and well presented gentlemen.  Keep going.  I am learning much here.  Way beyond my paygrade and current resources, which I am thankful for the links that have added to my resources.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
'Our Business Is Sticking Together'"

Thats out the window now Henry has entered the debate!
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 07-27-2013 15:13
What does POS mean?
Parent - - By electrode (***) Date 07-27-2013 16:22
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=POS

My Goodness.

I was allowed to learn a lot through the past few days, that is to say.

One of the key points, however, was that 'metallurgy' and 'physiology' seem to have something in common.

Whilst the former can show 'clumps of garbage elements in between the grain boundaries'; the latter, from time to time, shows 'clumps of garbage elements in between the brain boundaries'.
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 07-27-2013 16:39
Yeah I see what you mean, but then again I'm european!
Parent - By 46.00 (****) Date 07-27-2013 16:44
Maybe "clumps of garbage elements in between the grain boundaries" is a new way of describing interstitials?
Parent - By electrode (***) Date 07-27-2013 16:44
On rare occasions it is I who's getting emotional...  :)
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 07-28-2013 08:30 Edited 07-28-2013 09:11
That's pretty funny if I may say so Electrode but, don't fret because I'm not going to counter your comments that really don't help in getting this thread back on track...
So I'll defer, and take the high road this time for the good of this forum and I'll just leave it at that...

cddolan74, I'm glad that some of the links I posted were helpful in answering your query and apologize to you and many other folks in here for my outburst towards Shane whom I used to consider a friend and I should have known better than to give him the benefit of doubt, and include him in my list even though before our differences in here, he did indeed earn that spot... Hence, the explanation why I still included him in my list... But he doesn't have the right to insult me like the way he did and, had he not said what he did and in the manner that he did, I would not have responded in the way I did although, I'm not about to apologize to him at all as he was the person who initiated/instigated the dispute in question...

To be honest with everyone in here, I really don't have an issue with Electrode or 46.00 participating in the forum... In fact, I welcome their input here..

I do however get upset, and ticked off when either one of them make obnoxious remarks, and what they want to explain as mere observations are realistically arrogant, and at times downright disrespectful with their constant critique of the AWS, Americans, etc. And one can't hep but notice in some of the conversations they have with each other, how in some of the threads they're writing disrespectful comments to each other that definitely hint to their opinion that the AWS as well as us Americans are so inferior to the British & Europeans and similar rubbish...:mad:

That explains why I wrote about the early history of the United States of America, but I was not at being specific towards any individual with my observations & opinions prior to my response to Shane, and that is how I will respond towards anyone that is clearly being specifically disrespectful to me personally... I would also like to add that had Shane chosen instead to express himself to me in a respectful manner as opposed to the manner in which he chose to by sending me a Personal Message, all of this could have easily been avoided and I would not reacted in the manner which I did so, he must take some responsibility in initiating my response, but if he doesn't agree? Then I rest my case.

So once again, I apologize to everyone else for my response to Shane previously and yet, I will not apologize to any one who initiates my response!:cool:

With that being said, I will try my best to refrain myself from defending the honor of the AWS, These United States of America and myself should any more comments be written by the same instigators that were responsible for my reactions earlier.

Respectfully to most,
Henry
Parent - By 46.00 (****) Date 07-28-2013 13:17
Henry I need you to know that I live in the US thru choice and think very highly of both it's constitution and it's way of life! I do not think I have ever brought either the AWS or ASME names into disrepute? In fact I am a paid up member of both institutions! AWS and ASME codes are world wide acceptance standards and are so for a very good reason, they work! They have faults but in the whole they are totally workable documents that allow construction to an acceptable standard from day 1!
Parent - - By electrode (***) Date 07-28-2013 14:09
ssbn727,

Quote:

"I do however get upset, and ticked off when either one of them make obnoxious remarks, and what they want to explain as mere observations are realistically arrogant, and at times downright disrespectful with their constant critique of the AWS, Americans, etc. And one can't hep but notice in some of the conversations they have with each other, how in some of the threads they're writing disrespectful comments to each other that definitely hint to their opinion that the AWS as well as us Americans are so inferior to the British & Europeans and similar rubbish".

Now, after 46.00 has made his own point clear, permit that I myself shortly need to get "off track".

Oh Dear You.

How childish you must think I am and how gormless you do classify myself.

A foreign section - and fee paying - AWS individual member for many years; do you really mean I would do as you woolgather along your quote above, if I wouldn't be proud of being part of this great institution?

Do you really mean?

Not worth making any additional comment or putting any additional word on this.

I do think it's even too late anyway...
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 07-29-2013 20:37 Edited 07-29-2013 21:06
I also have been a long time member of the AWS and have enrolled many student members over the years who have continued on as successful welders as well as full fledged members of this extraordinary organization... Been there - Done that.

You seriously need to get your head examined Electrode because I didn't apologize to you or 46.00... You both keep dragging this on and on even after quoting that you will stop and refrain from further comment yet, you're still at it for crying out loud!!! And I'm not going to start another post that would continue this dispute by presenting evidence of both of you commenting in the manner I mentioned previously, because that would only fan the flames even more so don't even think of demanding me to produce it because I'm not going down that road any longer so I'll leave it at that... If you're going to talk the talk, then walk the walk...In other words practice what you preach because it's getting ugly!

Having said that, can we now continue to bring this thread back on track in the name of research and for those seeking further knowledge as well as sharing certain experiences???
I for one have more "stuff" to add on to the thread, and I think that both of you could probably do the same so what do you say?

Henry
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 07-30-2013 18:34
In case anyone is interested, Here are some links I have posted in here previously over some time covering Nickel Alloys, Cobalt Alloys, etc...

Here's a good, short, concise paper on selecting Nickel Alloys including brief descriptions, and recommendations that cover the Welding Metallurgical considerations...

http://eagar.mit.edu/3.37/H-3371-23.pdf

Reference data of Nickel Based Super alloys:

http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/2003/Superalloys/superalloys.html

http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/2003/Parsons.Tancret.pdf

http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phase-trans/2003/ft750dc.html

These are specifically for Inconel 625:

http://www.tms.org/superalloys/10.7449/1991/Superalloys_1991_71_80.pdf

Here;s an interesting thesis:

http://wvuscholar.wvu.edu:8881/exlibris/dtl/d3_1/apache_media/L2V4bGlicmlzL2R0bC9kM18xL2FwYWNoZV9tZWRpYS80Nzkz.pdf

From Lehigh University:

http://www.lehigh.edu/~inemg/assets/Publications/DuPont%201996%20Solidification%20of%20625%20Overlay.pdf

Here are some more from various sources:

http://www.silencertests.com/docs/01-2353-881.pdf

http://www.scientific.net/MSF.508.373

This may interest some:
http://www.aws.org/wj/supplement/WJ_1987_01_s19.pdf

This isn't exactly Inconel 625 still, the explanation of how the slag islands are formed on the face of the weld is indeed interesting to say the least:

http://www.al6xn.com/weldingal6xn.php

Another AWS paper from 1987:

http://www.aws.org/wj/supplement/WJ_1987_01_s19.pdf

Well, I started this yesterday and today has been really hectic to continue because of continuous diagnostic procedures being performed on me by my health care providers...
So, I'm going to stop here and come back later or tomorrow when I have more time to post more interesting "stuff.":lol::wink::cool:

Respectfully to most,
Henry
Parent - - By cddolan74 (**) Date 07-27-2013 16:53
this discussion at least started good. hope we can keep the info coming.
Parent - - By electrode (***) Date 07-27-2013 17:49 Edited 07-27-2013 18:10
cddolan74,

of course, you are right.

You did make some good points by asking on the oxide formation in welding Ni-based alloys.
I seem to recall that Nickel itself is capable of forming oxides and hence, in general oxide formation/segregation might be of some particular interest also in welding.

However, an increasing number of alloying elements surely contributes to both greater complexity in theoretically predicting this and the physical formation mechanisms themselves.

In general I suspect that will become some two or three orders of magnitude more complex vs. un- or low alloyed Fe-based parent materials.

Perhaps 'ozniek' or others, more experienced in welding metallurgy, may chime in here to enlighten us.

I'm much interested as well.

Thank you.

EDIT: If you're interested in the effects of Marangoni flow in welding; I should like to recommend an online research for 'A-TIG Welding + Marangoni' for some greater background information on the physics of weld pools affected by surface active elements. Please note however, it is not fully agreed among the experts whether or not "Marangoni" is the major affecting force in 'A-TIG' mechanisms.
Parent - - By cddolan74 (**) Date 07-27-2013 18:44
thanks electrode,
I have seen studies done on the marangoni -  surface tension,  but all were done on 304SS or 300 series. Most papers I have seen that address the oxide islands for nickel, basically offer pulsing or washing these islands to the sides so as not to allow them to grow and become an inclusion. I have not seen the indepth studies done on nickel alloys and how different elemental changes affect the oxide island outcome during GTAW or HWTIG as seen in most cladding.  I guess I am interested in seeing if there has been research done on the surface active elements or chemistries for NiCrMo type alloys that influence the oxide island outcome. 

I have seen papers or presentation on the cleanliness of filler wire, I don't think this contributes to the subject of oxide islands as much the as how it was melted or chemical make up of the wire.
Parent - - By electrode (***) Date 07-28-2013 11:01
cddolan74,

quite well fitting in to the discussion from its very beginning, dealing with the use of different terms meaning maybe nonetheless, all the same*, see:

http://www.specialmetalswelding.com/publica/joining.pdf

I found that through doing a search for 'Nickel Alloy Welding + Scale', instead of "oxides" or "slag".

Please have a look at page 31 of this remarkable document, and here, specifically have a closer look at the General Welding Procedure section.

I may be wrong, but as supposed earlier. Some of the major constituents or drivers for any oxide generation "recipe" (to me) are:

- Adequate Chemical Elements (such as Aluminium, Titanium,...)
- Temperature (accelerating reaction processes)
- Time (allowing the reaction/segregation even to occur)

I seem to discern some sort of physical generality. That is. Those elements, known as deoxidisers, will, given partciular boundary conditions, follow their "nature" by forming oxides that either are included within, or segregated from the weld metal.

That is. E.g. aluminium-oxide will "remain" as aluminium-oxide, independent of the parent metal it is formed within.

So, coming back to your question on NiCrMo alloys, we should have a closer look at what the chemical composition of, let's take a quite well-known type of these alloys, say UNS N06625 (ALLOY 625), states in this respect.

To the best of my knowledge the parent metal is allowed to contain ≤ 0.40 wt-% Aluminium and ≤ 0.40 wt-% Titanium.

Provided these are strong deoxidisers one might, given adequate boundary/welding conditions, expect "oxides" to evolve from these conditions. Also, one should not forget, at least in my understanding, that Chromium is capable of forming oxides as well, in this conjunction maybe confirming (in part) my previous statement. That is, the higher the number of elements of the alloy, the greater the complexity of these interactions.

Whereas having a look e.g. at UNS 07718 (ALLOY 718), deliberately alloyed with Aluminium and Titanium, one may anticipate some higher likelihood to end up with "scale", "surface oxides" or "slag". This, btw has yet been stated in the document whose link I did embed in this post.

Finally, as I did mention the physical forces driving the oxides through the liquid pool toward the bead surface. It would be interesting to learn how the viscosity levels, presumably different, i.e. higher, with these complex Nickel-based alloys vs. un- or low alloyed steel grades, affect the inclusion/segregation ratio.

That is. If we would assure constant boundary conditions in terms of welding and amount of deoxidising elements, but only change the parent metal (or matrix); would we obtain similar amounts of "surface oxides", "slag" or "scale" with both deposited weld beads?

Anyway. Maybe I'm completely wrong here with my layman metallurgical hypotheses.

Thank you.

*) As mentioned in a different post/thread but apparently completely misunderstood at that time. Just as "Linda", "Margaret" or "Anny" at the end of the day are different "terms" having the same meaning - a woman. Sorry, I couldn't resist.
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 07-28-2013 13:07
Interesting, I will need some time to digest this info!
Parent - By electrode (***) Date 07-28-2013 13:54
Cheers 46.00!
Parent - - By cddolan74 (**) Date 07-28-2013 17:25
electrode,
wow good info. your point on viscosity is very interesting and another reason I am curios as to see if there is any correlation between the studies done on SS and nickel alloys.  I did mention before that I was looking at different mills and found differing oxide islands results ( in weld overlays). forgot to mention that the chemistries were very similar. I will be in the future working along with some good metallurgist at a nearby mill in looking to improve the oxide islands in their 625 alloy.   The purpose is to reduce the amount of islands that collect at the toes and restrict the weld tie in and also may be inclusions when applying the next layer.
Parent - - By electrode (***) Date 07-28-2013 17:59
cddolan74,

many thanks.
You make some very good points and on a first view I seem to have overlooked an important part of your post/application.

It would be surprising if not both

- the grade (chemical composition) of the surfaced substrate, and
- the dilution level (much depending on welding process conditions)

may prove fundamentally affecting "oxide island" formation.

The former is probably capable of supplying additional elements to the (undesired) reaction(s)/result(s). The latter again supplies the 'energy' required to drive the reactions.

Thank you.
Parent - By cddolan74 (**) Date 07-30-2013 16:05
process would be GTAW, so low dilution.  need to check on base plate but most likely a carbon steel. comparing 625 filler material from different mills.  Still working out details on testing that would follow visual weld test.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 07-27-2013 20:22 Edited 07-27-2013 20:28
OUCH!!

What a way to steal my quote (not criticizing, just observing). 

Even Henry started out reasonable though he disagreed, at least it appeared so to me.  Most of us know there is a history here.  But, this doesn't have to be personal and ruin the whole tenor of the thread.  I'm still learning but there are getting to be a lot of bones to spit out in order to get to the meat of the matter.

Henry, I was and am serious, I appreciate your information, experience, resources and ability to bring things into a conversation that many of us have never seen.  And as I have said many times, it is difficult to understand the whole spirit of the posts of others.  Thus, I know I have taken offense at times when it was not intended by the poster to be offensive.  I have had to apologize more than once for getting my back up instead of just learning from the disagreement and/or varying opinion which was stated. 

Honest Henry, that's all most of us see, differing viewpoints and ways of communicating.  I think both 46.00 and electrode have added much to the conversation.  We can argue about all kinds of little things that are not going to make any difference in the final deposition of this question, idea, opinion, stand stated by Al at the beginning.  I don't think anyone even really cared that this took some hijacks with the history lesson and the interlude of slapping a few people on the back.  How people from various countries and cultures express themselves and how a particular word is used is not usually as important as how we apply the information imparted.  Everyone has done well in adding resources and helping others to understand where they were coming from.  Some things only create more questions that should be the basis for more research and discovery to add clarification.  They can not be 'SETTLED' with the currently available documents though, as stated, they help us understand the wording used by others. 

This is not the time and the place to throw stones.  That's the last I will say on this unless commenting directly on the slag/silicon issue which I think has been very informational.  Thanks also for the current line with the Nickel alloys.  More input.  You have all made me a better person with your sharing.  Every little thing helps me understand my job with all it's miniscule facets better.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 07-27-2013 21:29
Sorry Brent! I thought this thread was going too well! I think I'll retract from further comments in the name of graciousness!
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 07-27-2013 22:23
Glyn,

Notice I said I was not criticizing for it's use.  I also said I appreciated information you and electrode took the time to share.

This is not the time to leave in anger, or hurt, or anything else.  I may have come across wrong to you thus reinforcing my point about misunderstood communications. 

In a way, my previous post was to all of us.  We need to be careful about getting our back up and 'defending' ourselves when we don't really need to.  Or, from counter-attacking when, even if the other person did strike first, it doesn't get any of us anywhere but where this thread is right now.  We will only end up running others off who will see the strife and say, 'not for me'.

If there is still something to add here, please do.  And don't take me wrong, I am not trying to run this forum.  I am trying to play peacekeeper a little though. 

I am not trying to lay blame anywhere.  I'm too guilty myself to be ultra critical of others.  But all of us at times need to step back first and then see where we can respond without doing so in kind.  Not destructive, but constructive.  And you were right, this thread was doing well in that regard.  I won't blame it on Henry's meds, lack of sleep, medical issues.  Nor will I blame it on you or electrode.  We all do similar things and blow a cork on occassion.  Even some of those on Henry's list. 

And now I went and did it.  I said I wouldn't but I wanted to clarify myself to you.  So... no matter what you call it, or I call it, or Al calls it, any formulation of covering that inhibits the production of a succeeding weld pass regardless of the process in use needs to be removed.

It is always interesting in our American codes from various agencies how they claim to use AWS A2.4 as their terminology guide but have many terms that are completely different than how AWS defines them.  API 1104 and D1.1 can be contrasted in many areas thus.  The seminar instructors bring that to light in study for the CWI exams.  It can even be seen from authors of publications in the WJ and IT as well as the Welding Handbooks and other reference material.

We are not perfect.  We need to allow the authors a certain amount of literary license and the freedom to be as human as we are.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 07-28-2013 08:43
I think we all know what POS means - now we are getting really nasty.
I have no wish to have anything more to do with a forum that has gone from something that was originally beneficial to all of us in the welding world (no matter where we were from) to this rubbish.
I have spent 10 years on this forum so I would like to acknowledge those that I have helped and those that have helped me - I will not name names but those of you know who you are.
Cheers,
Shane
Parent - - By bert lee (**) Date 07-28-2013 14:42
love to hear something from nantong.....
Parent - By 46.00 (****) Date 07-28-2013 15:23
That would really add fire to the fuel!
Parent - By 46.00 (****) Date 07-28-2013 15:35
Shane, I hope this does not mean that certain people have won?
I had to look up the term POS because I honestly did not know what it meant, guess it's my age! I think certain allowances have to be made for some participants on here! I'm sure many others and myself value your continued presences on this forum and also your invaluable knowledge of ASME codes not to mention you real world experience!
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 07-28-2013 15:36
I'm going to have to do it again because I think it needs to be addressed in public...

Shane, if you are talking about leaving this forum, I would hate to see it.  You are much appreciated here by many.  It will hurt those currently here and future participants to lose such a fine reference and point of view.  Henry said you were a voice of reason.  That doesn't mean we can't be passionate, opinionated, biased, and even hard headed.  But our differing backgrounds, educations, experiences, and personal character make each of us who we are.  And each of us in invaluable in so many ways.

Please, everyone, and especially at this moment you Shane, don't let some miscommunicated emotional outbursts cause you to make rash decisions that we will all regret.

Hopefully the mods won't lock this thread down for it's current drift.  I think there is still more to add especially in the nickel alloys.  And I think it shows how much we all strive to perfect our understanding of our trade.  As well as how human we are.

Take a breath, relax, and we can get past this.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By 46.00 (****) Date 07-28-2013 16:02
I agree totally with Brent!
Parent - - By cddolan74 (**) Date 07-28-2013 17:38
not sure how to add to this part of the thread.  haven't got burnt ( yet). im sure for those that ignore their wives comments could ignore some of these stupid comments.
Parent - By Joey (***) Date 07-29-2013 01:32
Shane you're my friend. If I will put this scenario at project site, you don't tell me you're a quitter when your counterpart annoyed you. I also like Henry, if he is my boss I’m sure he will protect me from being bullied at work.

~Joey~:lol:
Parent - By electrode (***) Date 07-29-2013 05:54
Shane,
(yet) sporadically participating in this forum rather than regularly, I nonetheless should like to join 'welderbrent', '46.00', 'cddolan74' and 'Joey'.
Let me just simply repeat my previous statement, saying, that your brilliant, respectful and eloquent comments and posts do always enlighten me.
Thank you for staying.

PS: Although having gone grey at the temples I also was not familiar with the meaning of this silly acronym.
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-30-2013 21:49
You need  thick hide to survive the Forum. Some people play rough.

Considering the working environment all inspectors work in, I would expect a thick hide to be prerequisite.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By Joey (***) Date 07-31-2013 05:04
I agree with Al.
No such thing the Inspector’s work is always smooth.
My ex-boss said “ I’m very worried when your project is quiet, it means you’re sleeping at work”.
I like Henry’s writing. That skill is useful especially when you want to shoot some nasty contractors by e-mail.
Shane, I hope you will come back my friend.

~Joey~:lol:
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 08-28-2013 04:29
Well, it looks like Shane is another casualty! 28+ days since late posting!
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 08-28-2013 14:20
I'm still hopeful Shane will return.

Feelings can get bruised occasionally. I'm sure I've done my share of shattering an ego or two. It happens. I've had my bumps and scrapes as well. I try not to take too many comments personally. Someone could have had a bad hair day, a terrible day at work, the old lady shut em off for a day or so, maybe the inspector reamed them a new butt, or they are just venting. Not that they are reasons to act badly, but we are dealing with the human element.

The Forum can be like a children's playground; not all the children play well with others. Those are the individuals I choose to ignore.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 08-28-2013 14:25 Edited 08-28-2013 16:45
Let's hope not.  Many here have gotten temporary burn out and/or offended and pulled away but have returned after awhile.  I'm praying it is the same here.

His views are always appreciated, even when we have disagreed.

Have a Great Day,  Brent

edit: just for the record, my "Let's hope not" comment, was directed back to 46.00 not to Al's post.  Al and I must have been posting about the same time.  I think that should be clear enough without further comment.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 08-28-2013 17:48
Eat the meat and spit out the bones folks.

I've made one comment on this lengthy thread, as an encouragement.

In that post I used the word "minutiae"  which to me means small detail...      I was quoted a number of times, but the word inserted was "trivial"  by both english speakers and non native speakers.

It illustrates how important small things (minutiae) are no less important than large ones.  In welding or typing or talking.

The word "trivial" has a pajorative sense most of the time...  meaning Unimportant.      The opposite of what I was communicating...

Funny how that works eh?
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