Not logged inAmerican Welding Society Forum
Forum AWS Website Help Search Login
Up Topic Welding Industry / ASME Codes / After the fact inspection
- - By Stringer (***) Date 07-20-2013 15:08
Normally our work is not to code. Most of our equipment piping is subject to the same pressure as a rain gutter. Much of it is open to atmosphere. Food service water drain and it's just waste water at that. But the current customer attatched a B31.9 to the job and I've found out about it after the fact. Tanks are done, piping is done. We are not in compliance and I don't see any way to begin compliance. Wrong tungsten, wrong alloy filler rod, no documentation of welders, no root passes or purge procedures, and the welds were wire brushed. A Walter passivation machine showed up yesterday and some helpers were instructed to passivate all welds. Owner/manager/acting engineer seemed put out with me when I asked that he look into the bid documents regarding welding requirements after I heard the rumor that something was in there. I showed him the language in the CWI workbook that says "It is essential that the inspector get the particulars before the job so he can study etc."
This may get interesting as I hear this customer will be sending someone our way for an inspection.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-20-2013 15:41
Nothing gets the owner's attention like a whopping big bill to replace everything that is noncompliant.

"But it is the way we always build it!"

Court cases are built around situations like this. The payouts can be very large when they include penalties for late delivery. If the payout is large enough the owner will sit up and take notice.

Unfortunately the mindset is that getting “caught with their pants down around their ankles” it simply a cost of doing business. The contractor pleads ignorance, begs for mercy, and gets away with the noncompliance 9 out of 10 times. The bottom line is the company made money in the grand scheme of things and they had a profitable year. The sales department gets a pat on the back and a bonus for a good year. Inspection/QC gets their ass handed to them because they “should have known.” Everything goes back to normal shortly thereafter.

Make sure you are not the one thrown under the bus. All correspondence to management should be in the form of an e-mail. Keep a daily diary of meetings and conversations, i.e., who said what. Keep a personal record for your purposes if you are made the scrape goat. It is amazing how quickly management gets selective amnesia when the crap hits the fan.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 07-20-2013 16:05
oh dear! document every level of your involvement.
Parent - - By Stringer (***) Date 07-21-2013 03:27
We are amazingly small to have equipment all over the globe. I'm the original welder so all the equipment is mine over these last 28 years. There's always been a second welder but there's only been three of them in all these years, two of them of note. My CWI is of my own volition and passion for the industry. It's largely ignored by the owner. His charm has gotten everything accepted so far, but I have always been expecting someone to wander out here and have a fit.
Parent - - By Stringer (***) Date 07-21-2013 04:02
To be fair to boss and his associates, this is plant wastewater filtration equipment. The equipment has been saving the worlds' sewage treatment plants from excess food processing waste (starch) by re-using plant water. This is not in the industrial kitchen areas which absolutely do require code work from ground up.
Parent - - By Shane Feder (****) Date 07-21-2013 05:00
Guys,
When I was on the tools as a pipewelder I would treat every weld as if it was going to be radiographed and I have always expected all my welders to behave the same.
However, Walt Sperko has written an excellent paper on his website relating to B31.3 and the requirement to pay for quality that has made me question my own thinking.
The main gist to his article is that it is going to cost you more for a piping system that is subject to 100% NDT than it is for a system tested to 5% - even B31.3 recognises this.

random examination:(3) complete examination of a percentage
of a specified kind of item in a designated lot
of piping

3 Random or spot examination will not ensure a fabrication product
of a prescribed quality level throughout. Items not examined
in a lot of piping represented by such examination may contain
defects which further examination could disclose. Specifically, if
all radiographically disclosable weld defects must be eliminated
from a lot of piping, 100% radiographic examination must be
specified.

I hope I haven't got off track here but what I am trying to say is if you have had your systems regularly accepted previously all over the world without code compliance and now someone wants all your equipment to comply with a code then they have to pay extra.
If your company has accepted this contract without recognising the need for code compliance and charged the same price as previous equipment they are in for a big loss.
All costs for remedial work to bring it up to code compliance will have to be met by your company.
Maybe your management will read the contract documents more carefully next time,
Good luck,
Cheers,
Shane
Parent - By Stringer (***) Date 07-21-2013 12:51
Yes, it could be argued some guy rubber stamped a code on a contract and that code is inappropriate, but I'm well aware it's not my place to make that argument. In this case, management is one person and he needs to contact the customer and get their engineer to say, "oh, that seems fit for purpose here's my sign-off no problem". My job is to explain to him that we are out of compliance big time and he has every option to communicate with their engineer. But I sense that he is going to use hope as a strategy. My strategy is to be clear right now.
Parent - - By CWI555 (*****) Date 07-21-2013 22:36
Just as a word to the wise, the food safety and modernization act signed into law Jan 2011 has a lot of screwy language in it. There are vague tiebacks lawyers are having fits with.
I would suggest some research in this for future work.

Example:

124 STAT. 3896 PUBLIC LAW 111–353—JAN. 4, 2011
‘‘(5) R
EVIEW
.—In promulgating the regulations under para-
graph (1)(A), the Secretary shall review regulatory hazard anal-
ysis and preventive control programs in existence on the date
of enactment of the FDA Food Safety Modernization Act,
including the Grade ‘A’ Pasteurized Milk Ordinance to ensure
that such regulations are consistent, to the extent practicable,
with applicable domestic and internationally-recognized stand-
ards in existence on such date.
‘‘(o) D
EFINITIONS
.—For purposes of this section:
‘‘(1) C
RITICAL CONTROL POINT
.—The term ‘critical control
point’ means a point, step, or procedure in a food process
at which control can be applied and is essential to prevent
or eliminate a food safety hazard or reduce such hazard to
an acceptable level.
‘‘(2) F
ACILITY
.—The term ‘facility’ means a domestic facility
or a foreign facility that is required to register under section
415.
‘‘(3) P
REVENTIVE CONTROLS
.—The term ‘preventive controls’
means those risk-based, reasonably appropriate procedures,
practices, and processes that a person knowledgeable about
the safe manufacturing, processing, packing, or holding of food
would employ to significantly minimize or prevent the hazards
identified under the hazard analysis conducted under sub-
section (b) and that are consistent with the current scientific
understanding of safe food manufacturing, processing, packing,
or holding at the time of the analysis. Those procedures, prac-
tices, and processes may include the following:
‘‘(A) Sanitation procedures for food contact surfaces
and utensils and food-contact surfaces of equipment.
‘‘(B) Supervisor, manager, and employee hygiene
training.
‘‘(C) An environmental monitoring program to verify
the effectiveness of pathogen controls in processes where
a food is exposed to a potential contaminant in the environ-
ment.
‘‘(D) A food allergen control program.
‘‘(E) A recall plan.
‘‘(F) Current Good Manufacturing Practices (cGMPs)
under part 110 of title 21, Code of Federal Regulations
(or any successor regulations).
‘‘(G) Supplier verification activities that relate to the
safety of food.’’.
(b) G
UIDANCE
D
OCUMENT
.—The Secretary shall issue a guid-
ance document related to the regulations promulgated under sub-
section (b)(1) with respect to the hazard analysis and preventive
controls under section 418 of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic
Act (as added by subsection (a)).
(c) R
ULEMAKING
.—

By the time you follow the rabbit down that hole, you find reams of grey area that can be interpreted as new federal mandates for food processing equipment.
Parent - - By Stringer (***) Date 07-21-2013 22:50
I appreciate your post, CW1555, but we don't make food equipment. Wastewater equipment is what we make.
Parent - By CWI555 (*****) Date 07-21-2013 23:04
" Food service water drain and it's just waste water at that. "

That was where I got that idea. Ignore my post if you don't think it applies.
Parent - - By ozniek (***) Date 07-27-2013 08:33
Hi Stringer

If after you have clearly established that there was a code requirement in the tender and order documents, then I would approach this by way of Non Conformance Report. (NCR) On the NCR show the problems identified, and the proposals for remediation or acceptance on the basis of "fitness for purpose". If there is no legislative requirement for the code compliance, then the chances are good that the client will accept the equipment as long as your discussion shows that s/he will get equipment of good quality non-the-less. Also do your best to compile any documentation to highlight what has been done to prove that you have produced good quality equipment. (Especially that the equipment will have a long life.) In this process, please do not come across as being incensed that the client has the audacity to ask something that nobody else has. This approach will only back-fire on you! The approach is: "This is what I have done to assure you that the equipment is good for your purposes".

Following this "formal" approach not only shows the client that you have systems in place to deal with quality issues, and that you are not trying to hide any problems, but it will activate the client's quality system to evaluate your proposals from a more impartial point of view. If the client is to reject your proposals, then they will normally at least indicate why, which then again gives you a point from which to address their concerns. It would be rare to have a client come across as unreasonable on official quality documentation such as NCR's or TQ's.

Hope this helps.

Regards
Niekie
Parent - - By Stringer (***) Date 07-27-2013 21:49
Thank you ozniek for the considered and reasoned approach. I had taken one of Al's suggestion and sent an email indicating my concerns of non-compliance to management. This sounds real big, but management is one person and his office is eighty feet away. Also, I have moved toward compliance in several ways and I'll be documenting all this and I'll have no qualms with customer requests or opinions. It's always been their nickel and I'm only hourly so I'm just looking out for everyone's well being because it's the right thing to do as a professional. 'Management' is far from reticent, just more like not used to it. There are no legislative requirements and I'm sure this will work out without violence. "Fitness of purpose" is the phrase I keep teaching to everybody. It's the owner's engineer's call, but fitness of purpose is the bottom line on this resolution or we'll waste some man hours, cut-off wheels and probably my will to live fixing all the non-compliant pipe if this goes the other way.
Parent - By ozniek (***) Date 07-28-2013 07:36
Hi Stringer

Let us know how this plays out and the final resolution. Always good to hear other people's experiences.

Regards
Niekie
Parent - By jherrera (*) Date 07-29-2013 20:55
If your customer asks for a certified welding process... you have to do it in that way.
Up Topic Welding Industry / ASME Codes / After the fact inspection

Powered by mwForum 2.29.2 © 1999-2013 Markus Wichitill