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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / Thermal preperation of weld test coupons
- - By gibber1200 Date 08-06-2013 16:20
Can anyone confirm that thermal prepping guided bend test specimens is acceptable under AWS D1.1 ?
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 08-06-2013 16:51
Welcome to the forum Gibber

You will get a better response if you detail exactly what type of "Thermal Prepping" you have in mind.

Also tell about

Base Metal?
Filler Metal?
Process?
Procedure or Performance qualification testing?
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 08-06-2013 17:42
Hello gibber1200, I have to second Lawrences request for additional information. Yet, having said that, I believe that you may be referring to whether using the oxy-fuel cutting process, plasma arc cutting process is acceptable for cutting out the coupons for the guided bend test.

I believe that you will find some language in the D1.1 code that referrs to that situation specifically and calls out for removal of the thermally affected surfaces prior to bending via grinding/machining. If you are looking for the logic to this, you will likely find that the as-cut surfaces and a certain amount of sub-surface depth can be "hard" and prone to giving skewed results of the actual weld performance of the coupon. My $.02 to contribute here. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 08-06-2013 19:17
I'm with Allan on this, it sounded as though that was where you intended your question to go to me personally.

And, I have cut many of them by torch and/or plasma.  I will do it for myself, but not for others.  When people come to my shop for a qualification test, they either bring their own coupons or use my saw cut ones.  Since you are to be taking a test to the WPS limits for the job being done, many a job will have to have torch prepped joints.  So take your test that way if you are any good. 

Some of the pipe codes, that is exactly part of the test, doing your own fitup of the joint and getting it right.  But, D1.1 doesn't clarify that as a condition.  I would have to do some digging, but I believe the coupons can be torch or saw cut to size for bending. (I think I just saw a difference between my view and Allan's).  That being, I believe you can prep your two pieces for welding by thermal cutting and you can also prep the coupons for bending by thermal cutting, especially the removal of the backing bar.  It may be removed by machining, grinding, cutting-but leave a certain amount to grind on down.  And yes, heat will be a consideration. 

Oh, WELCOME TO THE AWS WELDING FORUM!!

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 08-06-2013 20:02
Hello Brent, my take on the OP's question was from a standpoint of cutting and preparing the bend specimens from the completed welded test plates. Similarly though, I believe that there are some requirements/suggestions regarding the initial test coupons and how they are prepared prior to the start of the welding on them. I believe that you touched on that in regard to the WPS used for testing? Is there not some language in D1.1 regarding removal of a certain thickness of heat affected material when preparation of coupons commences(in this instance I am referring to the actual bend coupons that have been cut from the welded test plates)? As I have read this thread originally, that is a part of his question. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 08-06-2013 20:10
Figures 4.12 and 4.13 in D1.1:2010, which detail test plate coupon cutting requirements, indicate that all edges may be thermal cut, but if used on bend surfaces, or the surface that is to be inspected after the bend, not less than 1/8" is to be machined from edges.
Other edges may be thermal cut and not machined.

Tim
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 08-06-2013 20:32
I read it more as being like a hydrogen bake out prior to bending.
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 08-06-2013 21:07
And from that viewpoint, I think we are back to Lawrence's question and are really just shooting in the dark until we get more definitive information.

Allan, I believe Tim nailed it with Figures 4.12 & 13.  Some surfaces need machining if torch cut, others do not.  The surfaces to be examined need to be prepped. 

I had considered rather he was referring to a bake out as well but I don't think so.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 08-07-2013 12:18
......or maybe AWS D1.1:2010 Clause 4.3.2 Aging.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 08-07-2013 12:50
If you are preparing bend samples, i.e., cutting them from welded coupon, the edges must be ground to remove any base metal affected by the cutting process. So, it doesn't matter if the samples are cut with an oxy-fuel torch or plasma, the HAZ must be removed for the reasons noted by Brent. There is the possibility the HAZ can contain hard brittle microstructure that would cause the sample to fail (corner tears). The resulting corner tears would have little to do with weld soundness. The appropriate figures have already been listed.

The artificial aging is intended for reduced section tensile testing, to eliminate fish eyes caused by diffusible hydrogen, when it is permitted by the applicable A5.XX filler metal specification. It is an advantage when welding higher strength steels that are more susceptible to hydrogen cracking. If the samples are allowed to sit for a few days the bulk of the diffusible hydrogen will effuse into the atmosphere naturally, but there may be some retained in the typical hydrogen traps such as inclusions, atomic vacancies, grain boundaries, etc. Aging by heating the welded coupon for a period of time hastens the effusion process.

I recently did my little hydrogen experiment as described in my other posts, but instead of using baby oil at room temperature, I heated it to about 200 to 250 degrees F. The hydrogen formed a cloud of very tiny bubbles in the first several seconds. The “cloud” remained suspended in the oil for 10 or 15 minutes. The oil cooled quickly when the cold weld sample was immersed, but the hydrogen continued to produce little bubbles for an hour or two that were relatively large (compared to those in the “cloud”). The larger bubbles would rise to the oil surface while the “cloud” remained intact.

I tried to demonstrate the hydrogen trick in a classroom recently with Lincoln P5 (the reddish covered electrode) and was sorely disappointed by the results. I guess the lesson learned was to use 6010 electrodes with the “white” flux covering and, by the way, make the weld beads as long as possible. The welder helping me only made small “tack” welds about ¾ inch in length and they didn’t work worth a darn. Also, if you want to demonstrate the effects of extended atmospheric exposure, do not use E7018-H4R because the moisture resistant flux covering is really moisture resistant.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By newinsp (**) Date 08-14-2013 14:00
Thanks for the tip Al.  We just happen to have E7018-H4R.  I will take some of my own 7018 to class for the experiment. 

As was noted in another post, we have been using Lincoln's Excalibur.  These DO stick much worse than they used to.  I ordered Atom Arcs this time. In the end, the students will be that much better for having the ability to overcome the issue of the sticking rod.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 08-14-2013 14:18
We've had a number of welders in the Forum  saying they were having problems with the Excalibur.

I wonder if it has anything to do with the open circuit voltage of the welding machine. You might check the OCV with a voltmeter to see if your machine is putting out the full voltage (80V plus or minus). Once the arc is initiated the voltage should drop to about 25V plus or minus depending on the arc length and diameter of the electrode.

I don't get to burn much rod anymore. I have some samples of stainless here I would like to run. An electrode manufacturer was good enough to send me some samples and I'm itching to give them a try.

Best regards -Al
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / Thermal preperation of weld test coupons

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