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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / weld wrapping
- - By farmin72 (*) Date 08-07-2013 12:42
In the past i have seen welds that were supposed to be welded on 2 sides per the drawing but will in the end get welded all around.  In my lack of experience, would it cause more issues trying to grind that weld out or letting it in there? I didnt' know which would cause more damage. Any suggestions or info would help out.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 08-07-2013 13:00
I am not sure what you mean by weld wrapping. If you are referring to "end returns" as described by AWS D1.1, the length of the return is 2 to 4 times the weld size.

Many structural connections are intended to be flexible. They are called simple connections that in theory would permit all the bolts to be replaced by a single pin. The single pin would allow the connection to rotate when the member is loaded and deflected. Extending the weld increases the rigidity of the connection and increases the applied stress on the "end returns." The increased stress can be sufficient to initiate a crack. Generally it is agreed that it only takes 1/2 the energy required to initiate a crack to cause it to propagate, i.e., extend. Once the crack is initiated, it can "unzipper" and the connection fails.

I hope this is what you were asking.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By farmin72 (*) Date 08-07-2013 13:06
Yes, that helps.  What i meant by weld wrapping i guess is just welding all around something instead of the 2 sides/ 3 sides or whatever the drawing calls for.  If extra weld is added, does it create more damage to the structural member grinding it out and repairing or just leaving it in there?  I guess that is my question.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 08-07-2013 13:15
It is rarely a simple yes or no answer. One must know the nature and magnitude of the loads and the design assumptions before a realistic answer can be provided.

In certain cases the complications caused by the additional weld can be catastrophic. In other cases it has no consequences other than the increased time and the cost of labor of making the longer weld.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 08-07-2013 14:30
Let me try this and see if I understand your question correctly:  (wish I had a pic handy)

welding a stiffener into the inside of a WF beam so you have a weld symbol calling out a 5/16" fillet weld on both sides of the stiffener plate on all 3 points of contact (2 flanges and the web) but it does not have the all around symbol and is not going to be galvanized.  The welder welds across the 'end' of the stiffener plate at the edge of the flange and connects the two side welds which is all the symbol actually calls for. 

The weld at the edge of the flange is not called out but can be there in most cases (there may be times when it is hurting the stress distribution).  It is extra time for the fabricator but I don't recall anything in the code that 'PROHIBITS' it. 

Now, here is the catch: if you didn't see the fit up before they welded it, how do you know they were able to only weld the size fillet called for on the plans?  If they leave the ends open you can somewhat double check the space between stiffener and flange and make them add weld if need be.  You do need to be aware however that sometimes it is the parts prep torch that just melted a little extra off the corner of the stiffener and it is actually a good fit everywhere except that outside point at the edge of the flange. 

Moral: check all points of fabrication- parts prep, fitup, welding, finish product. 

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By farmin72 (*) Date 08-07-2013 15:32 Edited 08-07-2013 15:59
Thanks, Brent, i try to monitor all aspects of the process but being in a dual role sometimes i have problems seeing everything.  I guess a couple of examples would be when they are attaching a column to a beam and it is a CJP weld on the column flanges to beam and the webbing of the column only calls out for 2 sides of welding but it gets welded all around sometimes, or an attachment welded to a beam web that is called out for 2 sides that gets welded all around. Sorry no pic, but hope this helps.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 08-07-2013 17:13
Wait a minute, You should be welding a beam to a column, not column to a beam.  The beam flanges are horizontal and welded with CJP's to the column flange.  The web of the beam is either bolted, normally, or welded.  Sometimes it is welded with a CJP other times it is with two fillets, one up each side.  I would really like to see them only welded up the two sides.  The possible stresses on the column from the welds running that short distance crosswise on the column can become a stress raiser issue.

Attachments on the web of a beam, same thing.  After you make them correct a few of them they will get the idea that their welders, fitters, etc need to learn how to read and follow the detailed drawings.  We don't know why the engineer calls out welds where he does.  But, welding all around can put a weld in the way of something else.  It can add stresses where they can cause a problem.  It can increase fabricator cost, which is totally his problem.  It shows a complete lack of following procedures.  More is not always better, usually it is just more and often it can cause a problem.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By farmin72 (*) Date 08-07-2013 17:28
Thanks for the correction, i am kinda new to the D1.1 side of things.  A majority of my work that i have done in the past is with ASME and piping, not structural steel. Obviously have a lot to learn.
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 08-08-2013 13:30
This is a common problem, often brought about by a particular shop's common practice.
A lot of Welders have been taught to always wrap welds around the end of a gusset, whether it says to on the drawing or not, because "It makes it stronger".
Also, some shops want everything seal welded to prevent corrosion, and will do so regardless of the weld symbols on the drawing.
I'm not saying this is right or wrong, because it depends on the situation.
Some Engineers adamantly do not want welds wrapped around the ends of gussets, as a means of reducing paths for crack propagation.
In other words, if a weld develops a longitudinal throat crack on one side of the gusset, the crack can travel to the opposite side weld by means of the wrapped end. Without the wrapped end, the crack may stop when it extends end to end of an independent weld.
I'm not saying this is particularly sound judgment that can't be shot full of holes, it's simply what has been explained to me before as reasoning to avoid wrapped ends.
Let's use an ABS lifting eye as an example (see attached jpeg).
If a lifting eye is welded all the way around, a longitudinal throat crack can also propagate all around, resulting in potential catastrophic failure during a lift.
If a lifting eye is designed to use independent welds, where each weld or pair of welds provides the strength necessary to hold the expected load, then if one or two welds fail, the others provide redundancy as failure insurance.

At least that's they way I understand the reasoning behind the "Wrap or not to Wrap" question.

In the end, Al has it right as usual.
It's not up to the Inspector to determine best practice.
It's the Inspector's job to locate and document non-conformances with design requirements, to be dispositioned by others.

Tim
Attachment: Liftingeyes.jpg (39k)
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 08-08-2013 14:31 Edited 08-08-2013 14:38
Hello Tim;

Nice sketch and good explanation of how two separate welds are more resistant to crack propagation.

It takes a certain amount of force or "energy" to initiate a crack. Once the crack is present, it only takes about half the initial force to cause the crack to propagate. If the weld is divided into two separate welds of equal length (total) and equal size, it takes more force or energy to initiate a crack in the second weld when compared to the energy or force needed to extend the crack in a single weld.

This technique is one I take full advantage of when repairing large forging presses. The machines are self destruct machines that are subject to fatigue loading. Two welds of equal length and equal size separated by an unwelded space will out perform a single weld having the same total length and same size every time. When one weld breaks, the second weld is subjected to a higher load, but it absorbs more "damage" before initiating a crack than the single weld would. I look for ways to utilize crack arresters. For instance, I might use two 1/2 inch thick plates rather than a single 1 inch plate when I can separate the welds securing the plates to the frame of the machine. The two plates share the load equally once the load is evenly distributed as a result of plastic deformation that occurs during the initial loading of the welded assembly. Initially one plate will be loaded, but as it deforms by elastic or plastic deformation, the load is transferred into the second plate and the load is more evenly distributed. All the welds share the load. If one weld fails, another weld will be more highly loaded, but there is some time before the second weld fails. The chance of discovery is greater because there is more time between the initial weld failure and the second weld failure.

The bottom line is, once a crack is initiated, it take much less effort to extend the crack than it took to initiate the crack.

More weld isn't always better. A knife connection consisting of two angles placed back to back is a great example of where more weld is not better. The length of the end returns is limited because the connection must be flexible to accommodate the end rotation of the connecting beam/girder that occurs when the member is fully loaded. The top flange of the beam/girder actually wants to move out from the column face when the beam load is applied. If the knife connection is inflexible because the end return is made continuous, the forces on the weld at the top near the heel of the angle is increase in magnitude. Crack initiation can occur and then "unzippering" of the remaining weld. Oops! Not everyone is happy when the floor collapses.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By Tyrone (***) Date 08-08-2013 11:38
Hey farmin,
I believe you could cause mor damage grinding it out.  You could introduce unwanted notches. 
The "extra" end welds would make it stronger.
Tyrone
- By 803056 (*****) Date 08-07-2013 18:45 Edited 08-07-2013 18:47
Let's try this on for size, from AWS D1.1:2010:

5.13 Conformance with Design
The size and length of welds shall be no less than those specified by design requirements and detail drawing, except as allowed in Table 6.1. The location of welds shall not be changed without the approval of the Engineer.


I can imagine the contractor and the welders involved will sit up and take notice once the inspector starts writing a non-conformances for every weld that isn't "as per" the design or fabrication drawings. Imagine the ramifications of missing delivery because the inspector is waiting for a response from the Engineer for each instance.

I learned long ago nothing gets the contractor's attention quicker than money. The more it cost them, the greater their attention to "details."

It is not the inspector's responsibility to determine if the extra weld is injurious or inconsequential. The Engineer is tasked with the disposition of non-conformances. The inspector's responsibility is to check the work against the drawing and report any non-conforming weld or member for what ever reason.

As I have stated before, I do not reject welds, I simply state they are non-conforming to the code or to the drawing. I am in no position to permit non-conforming materials to pass through the system as "good enough", that is the Engineer's responsibility and it is the Engineer that has the legal authority to accept materials in the "as built" condition.  

Best regards - Al
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / weld wrapping

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