How to handle an unhappy customer ????????

By Smooth Operator (***)

Date 08-21-2013 01:47

Well ran into a sweet job, being paid by the hour :grin:

Starts out customer needed 1 welder w/equipment then next week increased to 2 :grin:

By week 2 I get a call from job foreman "get rid of welder #1 he says he wasn't hired to fit".....OKAAY :roll:

Then they tell me need his replacement ASAP!!!!! OKAAY :roll:

In three days have his replacement on job......Great :grin:

Now end of week Companies Lead Welder has to go back to the left coast for a week.....HUH :confused:

??????? Well instead of shutting job down for a week I volunteer my services to run the job at no extra charge.... (also want to protect my interest of billing out two men by the hour & don't want anything going sideways !!!!!) The work we're on is tedious........ :eek:

Laced trusses that need sections removed and new pieces added, so to move things along I also brought in a laborer to grind,cut,etc.... :neutral:

Also at no extra charge :roll:

Now the bombshell.....Get a call from the project manager out on the left coast and he ain't to happy with the reports he's getting from the job forman and the lead welder...... General complaints of not enough production, to much loafing, not starting on time in morning........ I tell him I'm there everyday and have even hired a laborer to help move things along and that I make sure starting,quitting and lunch times are being adhered to..... :surprised:

His response: "You shouldn't have to be there nor should you have to have a laborer there either, the men should be able to run themselves" :roll:

Really !!!!!!!! I've been in this business over thirty years and I've always had to "Ride Herd" with the help, doesn't matter how good of employees I've had.....Basically he's telling me NOBODY should have to oversee this job, his formen is moving materials to ship and cleaning and painting and doesn't want to be bothered except to move something..... I told the project manager " Gee I wish the formen or lead welder would of talked to me if there was a problem" His response was to cut out the 2 hours a day overtime that was being worked :confused:

?????? They pay excellent (every 5 days) so I know they're not setting me up for nonpayment on the job, but I feel like I'm watching a train wreak evolve.......Any of you more experienced business operators / guys with more savy that's been around the block a few times have any advice???????? :red:

I can't figure out what to do????? Diplomatically approach the formen and ask "whats the malfunction"?????? (noticed from day 1 this guys miserable to work with, 75% of his labor crew quits after a week) Or just ride this train till I get the boot :cry:

I'm giving my guys a pep talk in the AM and I know they're going to look at me like....WTF ?????? Where's this coming from ??????? :yell:

GEEZ: All this and the STIILERS look SH**TY too (an 8 & 8 season if they're lucky) :eek:

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 08-24-2013 14:07

Sounds like your bending over backwards to keep them happy. Sometimes people are just never happy with anything you do especially when it comes to matters of money. The guy I worked for last year wanted miracles and wanted me to do it all by myself. His supplied helper and "fitter" sucked sweat off mule nuts. When I approached them about hiring another welder so I could fit and a helper to do manual lifting they were all for it. I gave them prices for additional labor and they approved it all. In the end, they cried a river. Same sort of thing, tedious work, more zigs and zags than a 1000 piece puzzle.

You have more experience at this than I do but in my 6 years I run from these people like the plague. Sounds like this guy wants you to pull a rabbit out of your arse. They most likely had no idea on how to bid the job in the first place so they are seeing your invoices come in and looking at their bid then getting scared. Anything they can say or do to make it look like your fault or your problem is the game plan. That's how this other place I worked with was. It took two guys all day to dig a 3 foot deep trench, 40 feet long in soft dirt and in the end they turned it around o me. "Why didn't you tell us our guys were lazy bums?" I don't know, cause my f'kn job is to weld not play nurse maid to your crew???

Hope everything works out for you in this situation. I know what your going thru and as a business owner you try to keep them happy but sometimes nothing can make them happy!

Shawn

By quinnwd Date 08-23-2013 04:21

You can tell him nicely without losing your temper.

By yojimbo (***)

Date 08-23-2013 18:26 Edited 08-23-2013 18:28

Smooth Ops-

Cant' say I have enough years at the helm of a business for any real insight but the situation you're describing is familiar enough and have been in those shoes a couple of times too many. I'd say Dually is making a good point and would be the most rational response, but in this kind of situation- dealing with peoples motivations for disgruntlement and dissatisfaction, rationality is rarely a driving force. It is the primary reason I don't charge out by the hour as a contractor, it puts me too close to being an employee under the control of the GCs supervision and evaluation. It' a sweet sounding deal to pass up, charging by the hour, but my experience has been unless the GC is doing a time and materials contract, any shortcoming in production expectations will fall on the subcontractor. Even when it works out well enough to finish the job, the GC usually ends up paying more for an hourly rate than the lump sum deal I've offered. Seems they get sticker shock when having to deal with the reality of the cost, wishfull thinking on their part makes them think manhours will be in their favor so a lower cost, and they often want to avoid the obligations for full performance/compensation/self direction that comes with signing a subcontract. Keeping their own guys in control has always been more headache to me than it's worth with one or two exceptional crews. The supe on the job should have talked with you first to get things straightened out if there was actually a problem, that he didn't indicates to me a problem in communications that is being driven by personal shortcomings and is not amenable to getting fixed. "What we have here, is a failure to communicate. You just can't reach some men". If it got any uglier than it already is, I'd pull my guys, and send him a bill along with a Notice of Intent to Lien, both the Owner and the GCs contractors/performance bond.

By Smooth Operator (***)

Date 08-23-2013 19:27

Yojimbo, The money(payments aren't an issue so far, paid every week) :cool:

The issue is with the job formen going back to the Project Manager in Cali. and bellyaching ....... Meanwhile this formen "VOWS" he will NEVER work with this Project Manager again because of incomplete drawings, materials not ordered in timely manner, changes to work already completed ready to ship and on & on it goes.....I don't know if it will get worse or if this is just how this job is going to run.....Tried to send somebody else to "ride herd" over my crew and the formen wouldn't even shake his hand when he introduced himself....Took about 3 hours before my guy called to confirm this guys an a##hole!!!!!!! :sad:

Was there the other day and the formen flagged down the port-a-potty guy to give him an a## chewing.... Just turned and walked away didn't want to see or care if the guy got out and pounded him....... :yell:

I guess I will just have to keep taking ear beatings from the P.M. in Cali. when he calls.... :eek:

What some people will do for good money :red:

By yojimbo (***)

Date 08-24-2013 01:55

Smooth,

Ahrite. So I don't see a problem. You got a dipstick forktongued foreman running 2 different stories to whoever will listen to his bull. Badmouthing his sub to his PM and badmouthing his PM to his sub and chewing anybodys grits who'll stand by for a listen. You are not under contract for a specific scope of work or dollar amount. The checks are regular, the only risk you have is when that gravy train is gonna end. It's all gravy man!!!!! Zero money on the line to lose, it's only a matter of how long you can keep it coming your way and how much you'd leave on the table if you don't find a way to cool this dipstick out to keep the pesos rolling in. He sound like he needs a freind reallllllll bad. Be that guy. Buy him a steak dinner with plenty of Jamesons and listen to his bellyachin until he's got it out of his system. Meanwhile, you've picked up another weeks invoice on the guys you got on the job, and maybe this guy changes his tune and your the Worlds Greatest Welding Sub he's ever worked with and the job can't be done without you or maybe after running down his woes he realizes his incompetence and pulls the plug for another J.O.B. and meanwhile you invoice for another week. Any way you play it, I don't really see losing anything you brought to the table.

I like clear well defined scopes of work, firm price bids and equitable contracts. Somebody changes their tune, that's extra, sign the change order, somebody breaches, bammo, that's a claim. T & M gigs always sound like a sweet deal but there's more interpersonal babysitting than I can usually stomach so I treat them different and real carefully. T & M only seems to be a good deal when the GC is collecting those blank checks as well but that's just my experience. Hell man, you have more business experience than me but remember, just cause Gordon Grekko made a convincing argument tha "Greed is Good", don't make it so. Without a contract as defined above, you can't lose anything because you haven't risked anything. You were ahead after your first invoice got paid.

You could always play hardball. Evaluate just what finishing the job would be worth and whether you'd risk that amount. Then contact the PM and tell him [prefferably at a crucial juncture of needed milestones] that the foreman isn't cooperating with his subs and you're pulling your guys off the job unless the foreman is replaced. Sweeten the deal by offering your services in the interim or at least offering your services to keep your guys doing what they are there to do while the PM gets this dipstick replaced.

That's probably not a really good suggestion, just how my mind works. Another reason I don't pursue this kind of business deal. Of course, I know how to go broke in a number of ways. Keep us informed, I'm always looking for new ones.

Someone doesn't shake my hand, we're likely to find out if his jaw is harder than my fist.

By Smooth Operator (***)

Date 08-24-2013 20:56

Well another week down and planning to continue working next week...... Week before invoice approved and check sent out from left coast Tuesday.... Last weeks time sheet signed and will be faxed out with invoice Monday.......Also was given a BID job from them for Burnouts to be delivered to job site for install......So far so good.......Going to RIDE this train to the last stop as long as they keep sending the weekly checks.!!!!!!!!!!!! Hell I'll just have to keep taking arse chewings!!!!!!!!$$$$$$$$$&$$$$$$

By yojimbo (***)

Date 08-25-2013 15:54

Smooth-
The fact that you were asked to suppy pricing and then given the job for an additional part of the project work speaks for itself. You are the right guy in the right place and they obviously need your help/partnership. The fact that there always seems to be a storm brewing or a dust cloud swirling around some foremans activities probably has nothing to do with you and it's just the way he and the company operate. In my experience, companies usually have a sort of "corporate personality". Some are laidback, some are always frantic and running around with everyones hair on fire. It often is a reflection of top management and how they are handling job logistics as well as who they are putting into field supervisory slots. They want people who will be as volatile, anxiety prone, short fused, dissatisfied and generally as unpleasant as the guy at the top is. That way everybody "fits in". When someone shows up that can perform their work without the need for a daily implosion of doom saying, that person is going to be a bit of an odd duck to them. The exact opposite of that is often the case as well- the culture of complacency that invades some projects where project management is so completely unconcerned about the disaster they are creating, or the lack of materials, scheduling, efficiency or logic and the field crews reflect that can sink a subcontractors ability to perform on schedule and profitably. You seem to be in the position that demonstrates an old adage I once heard, "Where there's confusion, there's money". Happy Bankng.

By 803056

Date 08-24-2013 18:38 Edited 08-24-2013 18:41

There are some customers you simply do not need. Cut'em loose.

I read a book once that said you should fire 10% of your customers every year. In other words, sometimes the relationship isn't worth the time and effort needed to keep it alive. Concentrate your time and efforts on those customers that appreciate your work and seek out new customers that also appreciate your talents.

It sounds crazy, but selling your services as the low bidder will only get you clients looking for a bargain. Just the type of customer you don't want. They will throw you under the bus if someone quotes the job for a dollar less than yours. You have the right qualifications, talent, and ability. You should be able to demand compensation that is reflective of your talents. Clients will perceive you as being on the low end of the talent pool if you charge too little. You are only worth what you charge for your services. If you charge $15/hr., that is all you are worth. The price you set tells you customer what you think you are worth. The low bidder is often perceived as being under qualified with limited capabilities, but good enough to get the job done. Is that how you want your services perceived, "just good enough?"

My fees are by no means low, but I'm worth the price I charge. Do I get every job? No, but then do I really want to deal with a customer that is simply bargain hunting? Probably not. It is interesting to see how many customers that initially balk at my fees end up coming back to me a few months later. They initially go for the "low cost provider," but they quickly see it was not money well spent.

My father taught me that you buy the highest quality tools you can afford. Cheap tools fail at the most inopportune times or they wear out quickly. In the long run, cheap tools cost more than the higher quality tool. You can either price yourself as the cheap tool or you can price yourself as the high quality tool. You better be up to the task if you are the high quality tool, because your customer will figure it out for themselves fast enough.

Best regards - Al

By JTMcC

Date 08-24-2013 21:47

A grizzly old timer who was comfortable bidding multibillion $ work, told me long ago, some jobs are good, some jobs are bad. The trick is to get thu the bad ones as fast and painless (?!) as possible, then get a good one next time.
That was turn key hard money work.
Your hourly situation is quite a bit different. I wouldn't tolerate annoying jerks on an hourly job unless, I really needed the work AND it paid very well. Both of those situations have happened in my 21 years as a owner.

The old 80/20 baby, 80% of our income comes from 20% of our customers (more like 90/10 for me). The other 80% can either be a good easy to work with, just not large customer, or they can be passive/aggresive bipolar baggage not needed in life. Your choice man : )

Ultimately it depends (to me) on the cash flow at any given point in time. Some customers are so bad I'd starve first : ). Most aren't.

We've fired a lot more that 10%, when the personal/annoyance cost exceeds the value of the income they are gone.... gone... gone with the wind. Lot's of low ball "I can weld" suppliers in todays bidding environment. Lack of job related specs just add to the goofiness.
Welding contractors have dropped like flies (since '08) in my part of the world, but in slacked off structural work and junk pipe (where there can be a lot of income made) the hacks are struggling to survive and working at unsustainable rates.

Another 2 years of the current economy and it'll be ripe for the pickin'.

My opinion only, good luck with it.

J

By Stringer (***)

Date 08-25-2013 16:35

At some point, the conscientious should rise to the top, but some customers really are too dumb to discern the difference.

By Smooth Operator (***)

Date 08-25-2013 18:27

JT...... The money is excellent ( When they called me I didn't know who they were, and didn't know the logistics of the job, just called to get an hourly rate for a rig to work) I gave them a number figuring it was another energy co. working the Marcellus, which has tapered off because of market saturation ...... Your absolutely right though on customers, in 30+ years I can count on one hand how many GOOD contractors I work for..... As I've said before "Most contractors I would trust as far as I could throw them" . I'm in the situation now where in addition to running small projects thru the shop for my guys, I'm also doing double the rate I would be getting running my rig in the field and I'm just floating around now. Just don't like the arse chewings!!!!!!!!!!!!

By Dualie

Date 08-26-2013 02:52

you learn to gage the ass chewings after a while and figure out which ones actually matter.

By Smooth Operator (***)

Date 08-26-2013 21:02

Dualie, you got that right......Got the dreaded call from Left Coast ( never good news, that comes by e-mail)...... Get rid of welder # 2 lack of production , doesn't start at 7:00 am (wants welder running & burning wire at starting time.....) Tried telling my guy watch your arse with this guy he's TUFF to work with but it fell on deaf ears/didn't register........ Well got the next in line starting tomorrow .......

By Dualie

Date 08-27-2013 04:06

Oh and the relationship to how good and fast their checks cash to the amount of ass chewing i will take is completely and totally proportional.

By Smooth Operator (***)

Date 09-10-2013 00:46

Well.....Still work in' this job....... Things have calmed down a bit.....They seem happy with the 2 hands I have down there now.... Got a call to ADD another welder and equipment..... Checks keep coming like clockwork.....Must be doing something right for them , also got some more BID work from them to run thru my shop......(Burnouts and punched parts) .......

By Dualie

Date 09-10-2013 02:09

if its any consolation i just handed in $100K worth of change orders to a client a week ago. The went from the most pain in the ass nagging azz client i have ever had to complete radio silence.

By eluca Date 09-25-2013 19:46

I have a friend that adds "an annoyance fee" to bids for difficult customers. Since they take more time and effort to manage, there is a little surcharge added. (Often the customers don't notice the slight increase, and other times they don't care because they can't find anyone else to take their business.) Either way, carefully manage their invoices to keep their account current and your cash flow positive. :wink: