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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / Water Dropped on Welding Surface-Problem Solving Solution
- - By J.82Nathan (*) Date 09-25-2013 10:23
Dear All,

While our welder is welding, some drop of waters fell on the surface of the weld. It is detected by Client's Supervisor and he strongly requested us to cut-out the weld and re-weld. I do believe that there is a stupid decision from inexperience supervisor who requested to cut-out & re-weld.

Water fell on the hot surface may cause harden the surface & moisture absorption, and I have proposed a solution that we will carryout Hardness Testing for the location where drop of waters fell on as well as to carryout UT after 72 hours to prevent delay crack that may cause by moisture absorption but he keep on requesting to cut-out and re-weld.

I am trying to find some evidences to prove him that we can close this issue by NDT & Hardness Test but not any code or standard mentions about it. Could someone of you with your knowledge & experience help me to find a solution.

Thank you very much!
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 09-25-2013 12:38
Don't sweat or spit while welding, we'll be cutting out all our welds.  :lol:

Are we talking about a couple of drops?  a few drops?  a multitude of drops?  a rainstorm? 

What grade material are you dealing with? 

What process and filler electrode are you using?

May not matter but I like to have a little more information before sticking my free advice neck out too far.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 09-25-2013 12:49
to add to Brent's questions...
are we talking about a couple of inches of weld or several feet of weld?
How long after the water started falling did the welder continue to weld or did he immediately stop welding when he felt the first drops fall?
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 09-25-2013 12:50
I'm also going to assume that the inspector is worried about the sudden quenching.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 09-25-2013 14:33
My assumption as well, and, he is the customer's rep from the sounds of it.  But, it still may be unreasonable as the OP has speculated but without more info it is too hard to tell.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 09-25-2013 18:08 Edited 09-25-2013 18:13
Also, was the minimum interpass temperature maintained during this incident?
Did welding continue? Have subsequent layers of weld metal been applied over the area in question?
- - By J.82Nathan (*) Date 09-26-2013 03:21
Dear All,

Please be informed that there are just few drops of water from temporary canvas-tent (we used canvas-tent for weather protection, after raining it remains a little bit of water on top) fell on a weld while we are welding. Preheat Temperature & Interpass Temperature is applied according to approved WPS.

I have proposed them to carryout Hardness Test to prevent Hard-Spot as well as to conduct Ultrasonic Tests after 72 hours to ensure no delay-cracks are occurred. However they keep on asking for such unreasonable things.
Parent - - By Joey (***) Date 09-26-2013 04:26
Nathan

What would you do of this incident if you were in his shoes as Client? Let say the Client accepted the proposal you mentioned, so next time as long as the proposal is acceptable, to have a proper shelter during welding works can be relaxed?  

I think Cut-Out is some kind of punishment :cry: a lesson to learn:roll: to avoid the habbit of not providing proper shelter.

I have been in the project where the Client will tell you to cut-out the welded pipe because you missed to call him for fit-up inspection prior to welding. I don't think it is unreasonable, if he accepted the contractor's proposal of RT then his duty to perform the fit-up inspection is no longer mandatory.

~Joey~
Parent - - By J.82Nathan (*) Date 09-26-2013 04:45 Edited 09-26-2013 04:58
Hi Joey,

To my opinion, we all are working for the benefit of our project a with win-win strategy in mind. It means we have to find the best solution for each non-conformity including corrective action & following by preventive actions.

We do thing for the quality of products but not to punish people. I have wrote my fist post with a little bit angry about my client decision, but the fact we all have to try to find the most effective way for corrective action (it means we have to provide a suitable solution to make sure product quality is not harmed in a cost effective manner). Preventive Action is another issue, you accept corrective action as my proposed not meaning that we will keep on doing this way with careless weather protection. After corrective action we have to do preventive action too.

Anyway, I highly appreciated your comments.

P/s: Your client requested you to gouge-out the weld just because you missed to inform him for the witness. I do believe that 100% NDT to make sure the weld is sound and following with a preventive action solution to ensure you shall not forget to inform him in the future, it can be accepted for the close of your issue. Your client request is unreasonable and it shows me that he just want to show his power but not related to product quality.

Yes, each person has different work attitude. What I expect is to find the most effective way to solve the problem but still can keep product quality.
Parent - - By Joey (***) Date 09-26-2013 07:54
Nathan

Being Inspector, I am used to the term “Penalty” in steel construction. Cut-out is not directly equivalent to punishment or penalty. But it is obviously a drastic measure of correcting the mistake. I do believe that your client can be convinced when there is a definite answer or solution to the problem. Meaning that you can prove your proposal is written in the relevant Code. If not, I would prefer to obey than to argue. You maybe lucky to win the argument one time but next time will be harder for sure. 

It is much faster to cut & reweld than to wait for Client's decision and to get their reason on why your proposal is not acceptable.
The preventive measure can be discussed internally with your operations, without your Client's involvement.

About my client:grin:, he don't want to sign the release note for welding because he did not see the fit-up preparation. He advised us to write our proposal and send it to their head office in Europe. It will takes around two weeks to know the results. So would you want to wait or cut & reweld a butt welded joint on 6" pipe? Our hydro test cannot re-schedule and we need the Client rep to sign and clear all the QC documents.

~Joey~
Parent - By J.82Nathan (*) Date 09-26-2013 09:55
Thank you Joey,

I got your mind.
Parent - - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 09-26-2013 08:41
Wouldn't it be less costly to the company you work for just to do what the Client's Supervisor ask for and go on about doing the work at hand.

                    M.G.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 09-26-2013 12:00

>Wouldn't it be less costly to the company you work for just to do what the Client's Supervisor ask


Milton,
That is why I asked if this was involving a few inches of weld or several feet of weld. Obviously you can cut out and replace a few inches of "questionable" weld in a short amount of time vs having to wait for a decision to go up the chain of command and back down again. If we're speaking of several feet of weld being in question, then I see some benefit to waiting for the answer from above before removing and replacing welds.
Parent - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 09-26-2013 14:10 Edited 09-26-2013 14:17
John the way that I looked at the post it was still under the tarp. Was it a few inches of weld or feet of weld. If you waited for and answer from the corperate head quarters what do you the they would say.

                    M.G.
- - By J.82Nathan (*) Date 09-27-2013 04:37
Dear All,

There is a K join between 10" Pipe & 20" Pipe. Few drops of water fell in it when our welder is welding cap layer. I know that we have to consider approval period from client to decide whether we will cut-out & re-weld or submit our proposal for approval. However we don't talk about the time, just assume that we have enough time for both. What I want to mention here is about technical issue, can we conduct Hardness Test & NDT instead of gouging out the weld where it is not necessary to be cut-out.

Thank!
Parent - - By Joey (***) Date 09-27-2013 10:17
Ummm technical:eek: will it be more encouraging if you will propose a mock-up test on test pipe?
The welding is to be performed in accordance with the revised WPS (i.e. with the use of water as cooling agent).
It will be the same as making a new PQR as per relevant code. Any additional test / requiremenst on mock-up
specimen should be agreed with your client prior to the test.

~Joey~
Parent - - By J.82Nathan (*) Date 09-27-2013 10:55
To your opinion, what is effect of the quality of the weld when few drops fell on weld?
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 09-27-2013 12:57 Edited 09-27-2013 13:05
Okay, Nathan, you are asking a difficult thing.

My memory doesn't bring to mind if you already stated so but I am ASSUMING this was standard pipe, not some exotic material.  I am ASSUMING you have informed us correctly and that pre-heat, if required, was applied per a wps.  I am ASSUMING you were using compliant electrodes for welding.  As you can see, we, as not present on site opinion givers offering free opinions (which are like armpits, everyone has two and they both stink) are hindered by many unknowns. 

Also consider, did this moisture come into contact during welding, immediately after welding over this area, a minute or two after welding, or 5 minutes after welding.  I don't remember this being stated precisely.  Add to this, did this inspector see the drops hit or just see evidence of moisture on the weld sometime later?  If you could still see evidence of moisture but did not see it come into contact while also witnessing the welding while in progress then he is assuming a lot as well.  Difficult to justify a conclusion based upon so much speculation and assumption.

Now, though, as to your question about our 'opinion'... More than likely, it did not bother the quality of the steel pipe and/or weld metal. It does not 'sound' like there was enough moisture to have truly effected the hydrogen content nor the cooling rate of the pipe (my statement earlier about sweating on our work while welding and if this practice is supported we would be cutting out a lot of welds).  But, that is ASSUMING a lot of things and I am not the customer's representative.  I would agree with some of the others, it isn't a matter of code and/or quality of product,  it is a matter of authority and showing that he gets what he wants right or wrong.  And he is going to make sure you are soundly reprimanded for this 'little' mistake. 

**SPECIAL NOTE: NOTICE ALL THE 'DISCLAIMERS'!!  I ACCEPT NO LIABILITY NOR RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY ACTION OR STATEMENT MADE BY OTHERS BASED UPON MY 'OPINION'!
Disclaimers are things like: 'more than likely'; 'does not sound like'; 'assuming'; 'our opinion'; etc.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By J.82Nathan (*) Date 09-27-2013 23:53
Thank you very much welderbrent!
Parent - - By bert lee (**) Date 09-27-2013 16:23
few drops? have you counted? don't say it to your client, aside from the cut out, i'm afraid he will also remove you from the project.
Parent - - By J.82Nathan (*) Date 09-27-2013 23:53 Edited 09-28-2013 00:35
Bert Lee,

I am not really good in English but I think you too. Few drops mean we did not count it. Do you understand? If you reply just for showing, it is not necessary. Your contribution will be highly appreciated but your funny claim shall not be welcome.
Parent - - By bert lee (**) Date 09-28-2013 15:20 Edited 09-28-2013 15:23
funny?? haha then why not send a protest to your client? tell your client why he has to order cut out for these few drops, in reality your client wanted you to cut out because he don't want you to **** with him
Parent - By J.82Nathan (*) Date 09-29-2013 23:34
You are really a funny guy...what do you want while posting such comment like this?
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-28-2013 16:10
Even if the weld was submerged underwater after the temperature dropped below the Ms temperature, there would be no ill affects assuming the pipe is carbon steel or high strength low alloy steel.

I have taken ASTM A36 test plates that were still orange (3/8 inch plate, welded in the vertical position, one pass) and tossed them into a bucket of water and they still pass the guided bend test.

Was there any "damage" done in the situation cited in this post? We don't know all the details.

Al
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 09-28-2013 18:55
It has been my experience from both sides of the fence on issues such as this... Don't poke the hornets nest.
The OP is quite possibly (if not already) going to spend more time and Rolaids than this is worth.
He doesn't agree with the Client Rep, but in the long run, it is just going to create more problems down the road. Maybe win this battle only to lose the war.
He alludes that the interpass temp was not violated, but how can anyone prove that if it were not monitored instantaneously and on what scale?
Even if the OP could prove all the answers to all the questions presented, only a full battery of destructive tests could verify the integrity. Now if he really wanted to push this, then perhaps he should cut out the offensive weld as requested, and run a comprehensive set of chemical and mechanicals on it. If it comes out OK, then back charge the owner for all that and the time involved. Yeah, let's see how that works out for ya when bidding on the coveted "Phase II" contract!!!
Is the weld in question still fully capable of performing as designed? Most likely, it is just fine.
20/20 hindsight will prove that we don't always choose the right fight.
As Al said "Was there any "damage" done in the situation cited in this post? We don't know all the details."? In reality, no one probably knows and should just cut it out to pacify the beast save all the hassle.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-29-2013 13:31
John;

You hit the nail on the head. One must learn to pick their battles carefully. That is very good advice.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By Joey (***) Date 09-30-2013 01:16
Very good advice :smile:"one must learn to pick their battles carefully".  . You can't read that advice in the book, only here in AWS forum with people of vast amount of knowledge and experience:yell:.

~Joey~
- By J.82Nathan (*) Date 09-30-2013 07:53
Thank you all for your comments & advices. There is no book, code or specification mentions how to solve some site issues like the case I have asked. Everything are solely depend on client's supervisor with his limited of knowledge and it may drive us to wrong way. It is why I want you to share your opinion while facing this kind of problem.

The fact, we have raised this issue to higher position (client's welding engineer) and he did agree our proposal instead of cutting out the weld. Many other issues like this and there are always having a choice for us to choose.

A very honest, thank you all very much for your either positive & negative comments.
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / Water Dropped on Welding Surface-Problem Solving Solution

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