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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Another unhappy customer thread
- - By devo (***) Date 10-03-2013 04:47
Looking for some advice....I was approached by a guy about two months ago to build him a custom dog crate for his Polaris UTV (see attached image).  After a lot of emails and sketches about the design, and only one meeting in person, I sent him a rendered cad drawing and he sent me half the money ($425) to get started.  I sent pictures as I progressed with the job, and he seemed to be pleased, until I finished the work.  Just yesterday he says he doesn't like the latch or hinges, but maybe we could change it up when he comes back in a month or more to get some more stuff added to the crate. I told him no problem.  Then today he sends me a long email with an itemized list of problems he has with the work, and that he won't pay the second half unless I make all the changes he wants or else he wants his money back.  This guy has been changing his story about what he wanted.  He specified "bar" in his drawings, yet he says he wanted tube all the way around.  His other big problem is that I didn't weld all the way around both ends of each piece of tube, even though I have explained to him about distortion and he only specified "no open ends exposed".  That means to me that there are no exposed tube ends, not to weld all the way around each piece of tube.
  So anyway, he'll be here Friday to pickup the work, or to get his money back.  I have a bunch of time in this thing and a few hundred in material, so I can't possibly just give him a refund of the down payment.  But he seems to be unwilling to listen to reason about his design choices and lack of communication.  So what to do?  A part of me wants to tell him to gently caress himself, keep the money and try and sell the thing to someone else, but I also don't want to get involved in a violent confrontation, which is where this may be headed.  This is the first time I have dealt with a customer like this, but what would you do?  I really don't want to eat the cost of time and material and be forced to sell this thing on ebay or something, but at this point I have so much time into it, I can't do any rework.  Sorry if this is a rambling rant, it's late and I'm tired.  I think I will talk to a lawyer next week and get a proper contract form made up so I can avoid things like this in the future.
Parent - By Tyrone (***) Date 10-03-2013 10:38
Hey Devo,
If either of you dig in your heels, no one wins.  If both of you can come up with a compromise, both lose, but at least both walks away with something.
I would go through his itemized list and estimate the cost if you were going to do the rework.  That would be a good place to start talking.
Sweet crate by the way.
Tyrone
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 10-03-2013 11:21
Nice dog box!....Wow, maybe if that guy isn't satisfied, you "could" give him his money back then turn around and put that nice box on craigs list or ebay. You bound to get your money back and then some. If I needed one, I would consider taking it off your hands, I like it.
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 10-03-2013 12:44
I like your work........ A lot!

Rover is not getting out.

Don't think it would be hard to sell if the customer continues to be stubborn.

Maybe have a few friends in the shop visit for a cup of coffee when you meet the guy... Not as intimidation at all... Just so he won't think it's easy to be agressive if you really think it's heading that way.

Let us know how it turns out
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 10-03-2013 12:45
Oh my!  Does that bring back memories.

First off:  VERY NICE.  There is some time into that for sure.

Second: I agree with John.  If he is not reasonable, just stop the conversation hand him his money and tell him 'No Problem'.  Thanks for the opportunity.  Sorry my work wasn't up to your standards.  When/If he tries to renegotiate- SURE!  The cost is $1200 with all your changes.  (or $1500 if need be so you can make money)

Third:  Don't take it personally.  It will always come along sometime.  I have had about 3 contacts through Better Business Botherers and another 3 complaints filed with the Registrar of Contractors here in 17 years.  I have beat them all with records kept of phone calls and paperwork on the jobs.  Fabricators need to be more exact on their paperwork than is often used.

Most customers don't really have anything against your work, they just want to see how cheap they can get it, maybe even for free.  And they will use all processes available to them in order to do it.  You would be surprised at some of the stupid stuff I have had said to me.

But, here is my theory based upon my beliefs in God and my efforts to establish a name in the community that has to tarnish:  Give the money back, it will come back to you.  You will more than likely sell the product for at least as much as was the original deal maybe more.  Plus, this person has no legitimate complaint (tell him- if I hear any negative in the community from this deal I will sue for liable/slander whichever is invoked in his methods).  There are lots of dog people in this country who either take their dogs hunting or just like them with them when they go out. 

I have had a couple of customers complain about very intricate handrail jobs that just appeared to not be able to be pleased.  It is amazing, we pulled up with the trucks and a crew to remove them (you have to be careful about how you do this and the words you use).  I told the customer we were there to remove the railing.  They kept refusing.  I said- 'You complained about the rail and have not paid me.  We either take the rail out for 'repairs' or you pay me the balance right now in cash (don't take checks at this point, it is too easy to cancel them and you have to start all over again).'  Down the line, you hear from others how great that job looks and they want one like it so they came to you. 

Good luck, but don't be afraid to hand his money back and bid him farewell.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 10-03-2013 12:52
I hope that you didn't mind, but I posted a link to this thread over in a car forum. Someone is bound to want to buy this dogbox.
Parent - - By devo (***) Date 10-03-2013 14:07
Thank you all so much for taking the time to consider my situation.  It means a lot to me, really, thankyouthankyouthankyou.  After another email today, the guy tells me he will come down Friday and we'll talk things over and come to some kind of agreement.  Not sure what that means yet, but we'll see.  He also told me he is a  quality control manager for a big construction company, so he has a boner for finding fault with things.  As much as I'd rather get it sold and paid for, I think the craigslist/ebay option is viable, lots of folks hunt with dogs around here.
  In a strange coincidence, just as I was reaching my maximum stress level about this thing yesterday, I get a email from a client that I did a bunch of work for this spring.  The biggest client I've ever had by a long shot.  They want another $3k of work (bigtime for my little one man show) and I quote "We should call it the Yates cap because you are the only one who has done them and did them well too."  A little flattery goes a long way sometimes.
  Again thank you everyone who took the time to reply.  Your wisdom and guidance are truly appreciated
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 10-03-2013 15:49
devo,
"quality control manager for a big construction company, so he has a boner for finding fault".
Oh NO... NOT Another "QC God" wanting to flex his muscle.
Just the fact that he had to throw that in at this point in time is an indication of the type person you're dealing with.
There's been some some great advice in here on your upcoming dilemma. Following that, I think I'd get the money together and as soon as he bellyaches about the first thing, just fork over the cash and apologize for having wasted his time. Also, I think the suggestion of having a couple of friends tinkering around in the corner would be prudent too. Nothing like having witnesses around to reduce someone's sphincter phactor. Krap happens, jerks are everywhere, and it's just a part of being in business.
This door has already closed and looks like the next one is being held open for you.
Good luck with this.
Parent - - By devo (***) Date 10-03-2013 15:56
Yeah, he actually put in the email "Quality is what I do":roll:
Well so do I:grin:
Parent - By 65 Pipeliner (**) Date 10-04-2013 01:37
First off, Nice Work!!!!!!

Me personally, You can pay for what we agreed to plus my time/materials for YOUR changes, or I'll give you back the down payment and we'll part company. You will not use my design when you go to another guy to have this built. $1500 to $1600 dollars for that isn't out of line, besides, you may have just found a new product to manufacture and market.

I charge time and materials for one off projects or one time just passing thru customers, period. Half down and the balance on completion. I just made up a short, to the point contract we both sign that explains the terms. It also states you are liable for any work done if you change your mind and back out. I'll give you an estimate, but that's all it is, an estimate. The final price may be lower, higher or right on the money. If it looks like it may go way over the estimate, I'll give you a courtesy call and let you know.

My repeat customers that have established their credibility with me, I charge materials up front and the balance upon completion unless it is going to be a lengthy (10 to 14 or more day) project. Then I tell them I need $XXXX to keep me going and the balance upon completion.

This works for me, but your mileage may vary.

Chris
Parent - - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 10-03-2013 14:56
devo how many relief holes you think you would have to drill in that tubing to keep the weld from blowing out.I think you did a good job some people can not be satisfied.

                     M.G.
Parent - - By devo (***) Date 10-03-2013 15:55
Milton, I explained that to him repeatedly.  He is currently using a steel crate that he welded up, so he thinks he's a welder and knows how it should look.  I also explained the possibility of water infiltration and freeze damage, but some folks just don't want to listen.
Parent - - By F-17 (**) Date 10-03-2013 20:21
He should have done it himself then. I'm a dog guy,and your crate/containment will work just fine,I used to build custom trailers for horses,fancy horses that cost 1 million a piece,I built a topper for my truck,I'm at work now but will get on and post pics of the trailers and box.I'd tell the guy to go pound salt and give him his 425 bucks back and sell the box on an internet dog bulletin board, birddog guys,hog hunters and coon dog fanciers would be ALL OVER that thing for 1600 bucks.Standard Almost a metal dog containment for field trial horse trailers which consist of 3 sides(the backs are open because they are slid up against the wall) are 500 bucks per box. Fire up a wire gun and put small fillets acrossed the tubes to satisfy the clown.Evidently apparant he can NOT be pleased.
Parent - By F-17 (**) Date 10-04-2013 19:24
 
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 10-03-2013 22:33
First off excellent job on that thing!

Second, always work up some sort of agreement on this stuff. Something that will explain exactly what you are doing, how you will do it with a copy of your plans and have the client sign it. I do this on the smallest handrail jobs. They give me grief I keep the half down material money, extract the handrail and leave them with a few holes in their concrete. Junk like this does not pay enough for the heartache and antacid pills required.

Negotiating, sounds like this guy is wanting to come up with anything possible to get you to drop your price and keep him happy. Print off the emails showing what you told him, highlight the design and his agreement to the email to build it and the agreed price. For $850 dollars it's not worth the hassle in my opinion, or $425. Personally I would give him his money back and tell him to pound salt. List it on sleezebay or conslist and let it go. At first I would do the email thing, showing what he agreed to and tell him he can pay the other half, collect his cage or not pay the other half and hit the pavement.

Your price for your time is just that, your price. Give in and every creep in 6 counties will be coming to your place. Give him a hard time and he'll cave to make you happy, then your broke. I've lost many a job because of my price. Guy said, "it's just a little crack on a backhoe bucket" and I said, "$300 minimum". He said it will only take 15 minutes to fix" I said, "75 mile drive each way, $300 minimum". I was broke as heck and starving but stuck to my guns. He called somebody else I guess. He wanted to pay me $75 for the repair. It was hard not to tell him to go play hide and go f'k himself.

This is one of the main reasons I have pretty much walked away form residential or walk up things like this. They have no clue what it costs or the labor involved in something like this. The hours you spent staring at a computer screen designing, calling about material prices, layout, welding. Then throw in the cost of a shop, a truck, 7 different welding machines, insurance, other equipment, taxes. This is a Chinese market except they want American quality at the Chinese price. You could also throw in the fact that your busy(whether you really are or not) and this was the design he agreed to pay for and you do not have time in your schedule to rework everything for free because it would hold up better paying jobs with less aggravation. If he don't like the current agreed to design then he can pay to have it modified to his specifications.

I will go out of my way to keep a customer happy but sometimes you just have to take the hit, sometimes an a-hole is just an a-hole and there is no making them happy. They were put on this earth just to make other people miserable. You'll get better at feeling customers out after awhile. Jobs that you just say, nope, don't want anything to do with this. When it comes to this type of work anymore I pick and choose what I want when it comes to residential/walk up jobs.

Good luck! Hope it works out for you! I know this year has been one of my happiest years, have hardly done any residential work. Longer wait to paychecks but none of the aggravation that comes with homeowners.
Parent - - By Dualie (***) Date 10-04-2013 00:19
for a good repeate customer i would jump through that hoop.   for a one time customer he would get one round to fix things he didnt like then either a pay full price or tell him to pound sand
Parent - By Chris2626 (***) Date 10-04-2013 00:26
That thing is very nice and I agree with others give him his money back and put it on ebay or craigslist, I'm sure that it would sell fast.
Parent - By strother (***) Date 10-04-2013 01:17 Edited 10-04-2013 01:47
Shawn,  I'm with you on the residential work and walk up work . When I do that kind of work now it is usually more or less as a favor for someone I know.
Parent - - By strother (***) Date 10-04-2013 01:13
Nice dog box! I have been in your shoes and I understand it is about pride as much as money. You can sell the box for what he was going to pay, maybe more. You have the leverage in this deal because you have a custom built dog crate and all he has is .........NOTHING!  I would just give him his money back. That is the last thing he is expecting.
Parent - - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 10-04-2013 01:59
That's more the way I would go. Tell him to meet on Friday to discuss it and when he walks thru the door hand him a check and tell him end of discussion, bye bye.
Parent - - By devo (***) Date 10-04-2013 17:08
Update and resolution:
  Guy showed up early and unannounced this morning(I told him to call ahead).  My buddy who was going to be my backup wasn't here yet, so I walked over to the shop with my two year old daughter (my shop is at my house).  After a brief discussion about the perceived shortcomings of the box and my explanation of why I did what I did, he asked what price would work for me to sell him the box as is.  I knocked $25 off the total and he loaded it up.  I'm glad just to be paid and be done with it as I have bigger jobs lined up.  Lots of lessons learned on this one, it exposed some of my weaknesses of how I do business, and I will be better prepared next time.  Thanks to all who took the time to give your insight and share your experience.  I think he was so intimidated by my daughter's cuteness that he had no choice but to agree to my terms.:grin:
Parent - By Cumminsguy71 (*****) Date 10-04-2013 17:31
"I think he was so intimidated by my daughter's cuteness that he had no choice but to agree to my terms."

Hahaha!!

Glad it worked out for you! Experience is the biggest teacher. I have learned tons from things similar. When you send out an invoice ALWAYS put your legal terms on the invoice. 30 days, late fees, legal terms if they default. I took a $7000 hit in the nuts for not having that on my invoice years ago. $300 invoice and up I still put the terms on there. A few clients I have done work for over the years I just send the invoice, they pay like clockwork. Everybody else gets the "legaleaze".
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Another unhappy customer thread

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