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I just recently hired welders from an contract agency. They tested the welders with our WPS on 6GR 6" pipe. They sent me a lab report of the bent coupons, but I have no Welder Qualification Report. Finally after asking for it, they sent it to me with no signatures. I'm so use to seeing a CWI stamp and signatures on all the Welder's Qualification Report forms I ever received, that I might have overstepped my boundaries.
I sent it back to them and told them these certs need to have a CWI stamp and signature on these reports.
Can a company representative sign these reports? It say's in N-1 page 353 D1.1 2010 for WPS & PQR are to be signed by the authorized representative.
Would this include Welder qualification Report? I looked around in the 2010 D1.1 code book,and I might have missed it, maybe it's in the commentary who is authorized to sign on a Welder Qualification Report Form
Does it say anywhere in D1.1 that a CWI should stamp and sign a WQR?
What is the primary interest that drives a hiring agency? Putting people to work! How many welders do you think they are going to fail when they are trying to put people on your payroll so they can collect their commission?
The only individual that cannot sign the qualification record or witness the test is a CAWI.
Al
So any signature (other than a CAWI) can sign at the bottom of their company generated Welder Qualification Report would be deemed acceptable. Why wouldn't AWS in force to have a CWI to stamp and sign off of such an important document? I couldn't witness the test being done. so i have to take their word that the test was performed properly. Hell in this case they could get their janitor to sign off on the documents and I wouldn't know the difference.
Well, I guess I shouldn't throw stones. Unbeknown to me my company's foreman, tested a welder on Stainless steel tig process, Sent it to the lab had it X-rayed and the only witness was a shop foreman. Can the shop foreman fill it out the company's Welder Qualification Report and sign it? Would that make it valid? I'm the newly appointed CWI here and I'm not going to place my stamp on it. it was done 6 months ago according to the X-ray documents I was on another project in the yard and they didn't even notify me about it. I don't believe a third party inspector working for a major oil company would except it. but hell he wouldn't know if the janitor or the shop foreman signed it either.
Where is the authenticity in this whole process. I busted my butt to pass this CWI exam and now any joker can sign off on a welders cert. stating the document was correctly completed I'm disappointed. Wait when I tell the foreman he can fill out and sign the qualification report on for tig hand. Because I won't
First, it isn't AWS's decision. Take a look at the front of D1.1 and see who serves on the committee. They are mostly reps from construction companies. You don't think they are going to slit their own throats do you. They make it as easy as they can for themselves.
Second, there has to be a certain amount of trust in the system. It is all based upon lowering the risk percentages as far as possible and any system can always be cheated on. You have to place a certain amount of trust in the companies to follow some set of morals and ethics in the way they set up and follow a QC program applicable to the codes being worked to.
Third, among welders, inspectors, and all other trades, there is a difference between certified and qualified. Even after the exams AWS has set up for CWI's there is still much that is unknown by so many.
It isn't a perfect system, but it is the best out there.
Have a Great Day, Brent
Thanks for your incite. I really appreciate it and this forum for your help.
Who is going to end up in the witness chair if there's a problem with the product? The person whose signature is on the document. You sign it, you live with the consequences.
We have to remember that the Code only details minimum requirements.
The Code does not restrict who can take a weld test, or who can administer a weld test, with the exceptions that the person verifying and signing the WPQR must be authorized by the employer to do so, other than a CAWI.
If an authorized person is technically capable of completing the process accurately, so be it.
If the process was done in a non Code compliant manner, reject it.
If the end product is so critical that the customer wants an extra level of protection to ensure Code compliance by requiring a CWI to administer and/or stamp the WPQR, fine, make it so, but this has to be agreed upon between the contractor and the customer as an exception to code requiremnts, in the contract.
Tim
Pick up your copy of QC1. Read the Code of Ethics. You, as the CWI, do not sign for anything that you did not see, inspect, or had complete knowledge of.
Al
It's been years since I've read QC1.. Thank you so much for reminding me. I'll have a copy close by my desk. It will be my shield to remind others.
An in house WQR is fine for non code work and anyone off the street can approve one. A WQR is not an AWS Certification and may not be substituted. Only an AWS CWI can stamp off on an AWS cert. It is funny how anyone off the street is more qualified than a CAWI.
Hvymax
The only time AWS requires a CWI to sign off a welder quailfication test report.. Is when that report is generated under the authority of an AWS accredited test facility. (ATF)
AWS D1.1 code compliance for Certs, Test reports or whatever you want to call the paper, has ZERO requirment for a CWI signature...
If I'm wrong.. Please show me in the code book where you get your answer.
There is no such thing as an 'AWS Cert'.
Welders are qualified to AWS codes by whatever means the codes, contract documents, and/or employer policies are.
If they go to and get qualified through an AWS Accredited Test Facility then they can fill out the additional paperwork, pay the fees and be listed on the AWS Certified Welder Database. But even then, AWS does not qualify nor certify welders. They only record and document the certification.
It is not that "anyone off the street is more qualified than a CAWI" but rather that the CAWI has ethics and job description restrictions imposed upon them by the AWS standards and committees that restrict them from things that they may indeed be perfectly qualified and knowledgeable to do. But, any of it must be directly supervised by a full CWI. So even there, they are only restricted when not supervised. And, can't do the signing though they may have done all the paperwork.
The WPQR has a place for a witness, often a CWI, to sign for the VT and actual bending of test coupons. But, the cert itself is signed by a company/employer rep who is 'certifying' that all the information on the form is correct and that it was indeed the person named who performed the welding that was tested and thus qualified them to the applicable code.
Have a Great Day, Brent
You bring up an interesting point about the "AWS Cert" that I have been thinking about for a little while now. I work for a school that has qualified thousands of welders both student and non student over the last several decades. We are not an ATF and do not envision us ever becoming one. I do not see the need to do so, however recently we have been questioned by welders needing "AWS" certifications to work in the NYC area why our certifications were not valid. Some to the point of where we were being accused of fraud because the certifications obtained through us was not valid on NYC jobs. My answer to them has always been that if you need an AWS certification you have to go to an ATF to get that, but reading how you've worded your response gives me a better understanding in that regard and how I can reply to these questions in the future. I remember reading something a while back that Al Moore had written about the ATF's that I wish I could view again.
As an alternative to the ATF for your institution...
You might want to look at jumping the CWB hoops.. They have plenty of hoops to jump, and some expenses... But nothing like the expense, manpower and general waste that tends to accompany an ATF facility and what it takes to keep one running.
There are a number of local U.S. jurisdictions that look fondly on CWB accredited activities.
It's funny the AWS and CWB are like apples and oranges sometimes... Both also have there particular excellences and chaos too.
A customer or in this case a municipality can demand any certifications they want.
The issue of welder qualification and certification is a murky subject at best. Most people don't understand what is involved and they don't want to know what is involved. They pass the responsibility on to someone else and let them worry about the details. Basically that is the stance NYC has taken. In past years NYC had their own testing facility where the welder would go to take the test. NYC personnel would evaluate the coupons and issue the certification. As a cost cutting measure they decided to go with the AWS ATF. Whether that is a good or bad decision is yet to be seen.
I personally believe it is the equivalent of hiding your head in the sand and humming "la, la, la." From what I have seen the ATFs are no better than the lab of twenty years ago that qualified welders using one test fixture for all materials and all thicknesses (think API 1104). Sooner or later AWS and one or more ATFs will end up in litigation and they will be splashed in the headlines at Fox News.
There is a cost associated with operating an ATF. It is an ongoing expense that is difficult to justify unless the laboratory has a steady daily stream of welders that need to be qualified. The cost of developing a program to meet the requirements of the ATF and the cost of on-going audits is more than most laboratories can justify. I could be wrong, I have been wrong before, but I believe the system of ATFs is going to implode. As a contactor, I would simply opt to stay out of those jurisdictions that have been foolish enough to buy into AWS' marketing. I have received several calls from contractors asking questions about AWS' current marketing strategy and none of it has been favorable.
It is just my opinion.
Al
I tend to agree. AND, it becomes even more complicated when the ATF is a Technical School wanting to market itself as a location to get AWS Certifications (oops, did I say that?).
They are using student and taxpayer dollars to support a system that competes with private industry. They buy books, equipment, pay for audits with my tax dollars charged at higher rates to support the program so I don't have the money that should be mine to do the work myself. Make sense? Not to me. Let me keep my own money and do the work on the private level.
Have a Great Day, Brent
Some of these ATF, read "schools", conveniently forget that the individual training the welder isn't suppose to be involved in testing the welder.
You are correct with regards to public institutions using taxpayer money to support a money generating program. I have to admit that I do not offer much in the way of support to those institutions that are competing with me for customers.
There is a couple of schools in my area that call now and again for advice on how to meet the requirements of different codes. I typically politely decline giving them the advice they are looking for by saying I'm not familiar with the particular code.
I hate to be that way, but business is business. They can take time off work to attend the same training course I attended and they can pay out of their own pocket when the state refuses to pay for the classes.
Best regards - Al
True as well, not always in the applicable codes is it defined but almost always within the General Notes on the Structural Drawings there is the notation that the welders are to be currently qualified to D1.1 by an Independent Third Party Agency.
How can a school train and qualify it's own students to AWS ATF standards and record keeping and expect the system to be without conflict of interest for employers wanting to hire properly trained and qualified welders? The school may not be the employer but it sure is not an independent third party agency.
Have a Great Day, Brent
I can't imagine why a school instructor would possibly want to not fully enforce the standards for his own students - the instructor's personal reputation and the institution's reputation are on the line. If any error were made, I would expect most welding instructors to error on the side of being more stringent for their own students. I can't see how the instructor could possibly expect to gain anything positive or personally by being lenient on students.
Ah...yes. And we circle back to "No student left behind". Ever notice how many welding schools list that they offer their students multiple attempts to pass a welder certification test before expecting them to pay for another? Seem's to water it down if you ask me and what does it say about the teaching? As an instructor that would make me feel as though the institution has little faith in my teaching. Not saying that anyone is above failing a weld test, after all we are all human, however I believe the intent of a weld test is to validate one's skill and not to fire enough at it and hope to get one good one. Just my .02
By Lawrence 
Date 11-07-2013 15:20
Edited 11-07-2013 15:22
Brent...............What a beautifully spoken statement!
I agree with your judgement on all points.
This is why I refused to allow my lab to become a ATF even though there were zero ATF's in the state.
It is also why on the rare occations I printed of a Welder Qualification Test Report (cert) at the college, I watermarked the paperwork as follows:
"For Educational Purposes Only, Not For Production"
If I have great confidence in a student, I have no problem helping them get their foot in the door for a job or a weld test.... But if somebody wants to do production work off of my CWI credential, they are bloody well going to pay me for it. And I'm not going to willingly take food off the table of local TPI's by flooding the market with subsidized student certs. I'm not saying I never did it... I had a boss and I obeyed him... But when I had lattidude to decide, typically I declined.
I have no beef with local colleges training curriculum to be heavily weighted toward local industry, it would be stupid not to. But performance qualification testing on campus is another matter in my opinion.
I work in an ATF/Training facility. Believe me the standards are very high as well as the CWI standards of conduct. Coupons are carefully cataloged and saved. Every test record has a full lab sheet, knowlege test and traceability on coupons and consumables. It is nice having access to the database for updates and renewalls but there is a huge responsibility to the integrity of the system. Gone are the days of CWI's scribbling and stamping something on a napkin and it being official. My facility has several CWI/Instructors as well as several CWE's.The head admin goes above and beyond on every coupon to uphold our 100% status. I must say that my CWI experience is invaluable in teaching. I see things that most would miss and know what fixes them. Also if a welder certified at my facility ends up being reported and investigated it will lead back to us and that is not good.
So, as an instructor, working for an ATF, training facility, as a CWI and CWE, do you also qualify the students you teach?
Al
By hvymax 
Date 11-07-2013 15:07
Edited 11-08-2013 14:10
That is why we have 2 CWI/Instructors. Though I believe we have a waiver because maintaining several CWI's can be unrealistic. We both usually review all coupons and forms before filing just so we both know what is in our system. The ATF admin class really stresses I crossing and T dotting but also our responsibility to the integrity of the system and how our every action is fully tracable along with our test materials. Like I said if one of MY welders gets reported to Doral (not Miami anymore) it will come directly back to ME and my facility. I have seen how the Community College thing works as well with coupons being sent to an outside facility. I was not involved with the actual certs issued there but I did make a point to send general notes along with the coupons and visually inspect to the standards given me by the testing facility. All instructors are different and evidently so are many of the quals issued. The ATF program is actually an extension of the QC program developed by our International Training Institute for our program and has been adopted by the AWS and grown into what it is now. Like I said the past system was completely unmanagable with CWI's randomly stamping off on anything they could scribble on. The ATF system allows all welders so certified to be followed throughout their entire career with verifyable certifications that can be tracked all the way back to the initial coupon they were certified with. Every maintenance form,every update,every renewal can be researched and traced. One of the biggest problems I keep reading about here is people coming behind a sloppy CWI and finding a mess of misfiled paperwork and randomly maintained records. Facing annual audits and having standardized forms and procedures would eliminate most all of that. It is time for us to get with the 20th Century and get our act together for the future of our industry. Before the ATF system every other year or so I would almost have to threaten legal action and provide copies of my renewall forms and cancelled checks because Miami had claimed my dozens of certs had lapsed. Now we can directly input updates and renewalls.
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