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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Stainless steel rusting
- - By Daniel Washingt (*) Date 10-24-2013 01:44
I know how stainless steel can rust but everytime I weld a piece of pipe...whether I use a ss wire wheel or not the rust will start to rust...is there any way to avoid this? Using 308 pipe with 308 rod...have also tried 316 pipe with 316 rod with no avail...if you have eerie nice with shining the stainless pipe up and welds without rusting any advice will do
Parent - By mechan (**) Date 10-24-2013 02:22
If you are sometimes NOT using a stainless brush / wire wheel then the base metal most defiantly will rust. Usually stainless will rust from contamination from an outside source, e.g. carbon brush, stainless brush used on carbon, file, etc. Excessive heat input can also lower the corrosion resistance of the base metal, but I don't think you'd see the rust show up as quick as it sounds like it is showing up for you. Unless you are running this pipe in a high caustic area or something. Depending on the application welds can / are required to be passivated (or areas of the base metal) post welding (or contamination of the base metal) to mitigate corrosion issues. Avesta makes a pretty good selection of pickeling pastes to passivate stainless, but if you decide to go that route make sure you match up the correct paste with the correct base metal.

My thoughts are you are probably using a contaminated piece of gear though. The way to avoid it is to isolate what is causing the contamination. That means the SS wire brush or wire wheel you use ONLY gets used on stainless. You do not set the pipe down on carbon pipe stands without some type of poison pad on the head. The situation doesn't have to be clean room sterile, but you need to do your due diligence not to mix gear you use on carbon with gear you use on stainless. The same is true for other high metallurgy pipe like 6-7% Moly's and the like. I don't believe I have ever had the case where it wasn't pretty evident where the rust was coming from on stainless welds. General rule of thumb is, IF IT TOUCHES CARBON IT DOES NOT TOUCH THE STAINLESS! Also, the type of cleaner or marking utensils you are using can cause issues with corrosion / intergranular cracking. You ALWAYS want to use low chloride cleaners and marking utensils on stainless. (aka Don't use your sharpie on stainless pipe unless it is the LOW CHLORIDE KIND!) If you're bored the Nickel Institute has a good write up on keeping your stainless fabrication environment clean and happy.

It is usually pretty easy to tell if the stainless is rusting from using a bad brush because it rusts exactly where the brush strokes are. The look on a foreman's face when we walked around for me to buy off on the piping and he realized that one of his bargain basement fitters had decided to hit a couple dozen completed joints with a carbon wire wheel was priceless ... :grin:
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 10-24-2013 11:48
Great info from Mechan.

Tell us about your welding parameters, process - settings - sheilding for more help.

Tim
Parent - - By Daniel Washingt (*) Date 10-24-2013 13:29
I cut the pipe with a chop saw, grind a bevel with a grinding disc that is supposed to be able to be used on ss, run the root pass on 95 using tig with 100% argon with 20 on the shielding gas, 100 on hot pass and filler then 75 on the cap using ss hand brush in between passes and ss wire brush after finishing the cap
Parent - - By mechan (**) Date 10-24-2013 13:37
Are you using a purge gas, solar flux, or flux cored tig wire for the root pass? Has the chop saw ever been used on carbon steel?
Parent - - By Daniel Washingt (*) Date 10-24-2013 13:43
100% argon purge with a flow of 15-30 depending on how the pipe is...as for the filler metal it is just a regular tig filler rod and new chop saw blades only used on the pipe we were welding...all the welds were x rayed and all of them passed
Parent - - By mechan (**) Date 10-24-2013 13:45 Edited 10-24-2013 13:49
Well an x-ray wouldn't tell you much about the corrosion issue from the get go in general. You only would need a flux cored tig wire or solar flux if you weren't using purge gas. If those are the conditions you are using then you should not have corrosion. I would be willing to wager something has carbon though ...

In general rusting on stainless is not a HUGE issue unless someone has introduced carbon into the equation. Either through setting the stainless on carbon hangers, carbon pipe stands, used a cutting torch or a grinder near the stainless that throws carbon onto the surface, used a carbon or ss brush that was used on carbon, uses carbon steel hammers during fit up, etc.

Even then I've seen plenty of stainless joints not rust when carbon bull pins, hammers, and the like have been used. How soon after fabrication are the pipes rusting? Are they rusting after being exposed to process and if so what is the make up of the process of medium?
Parent - - By Daniel Washingt (*) Date 10-24-2013 14:14
Not sure exactly how long but I visited the site a month after putting them in the weather and it started to rust...I do use carbon jack stands but they are set up away from the welds...the pipe we used had scratches in it that had rust on the scratches but only a few of those were present other then that it's just where the welds are
Parent - By tazmannusa (**) Date 10-29-2013 15:24
I have done some stainless mostly with stick or mig with try mix, to much heat input is also a killer on corrosion resistance. So far I haven't had any rusting issues I just use dedicated grinding wheels, floppy disk, and stainless brushes.  I usually just lightly polish up the weld area with a finer stainless brush wheel on the grinder after it cools then treat it with a pickling paist
   When working with steel around stainless steel, spray all the stainless in the area with a coat of WD40, keeps the weld splatter and grinding sparks from in bedding on the surface of the stainless. I have worked in quite a few milk barns under construction where everything is going on at the same time, sometimes I would be cutting,grinding and welding in galvanized pipe and 10 feet away there running tig on milk lines, didn't seem to bother them
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 10-24-2013 13:55
Sounds reasonable, as long as your abrasives have been completely isolated from carbon steel.
It sure is easy to mix up wheels and rods sometimes.
I can remember several scenarios in which this has caused a lot of trouble in the past.
Even grinding dust from somone grinding carbon close by can cause problems.

Tim
Parent - - By Stringer (***) Date 10-25-2013 00:24
I work in a mostly stainless, but sometimes carbon shop and I completely echo Tim's sentiment. I would only add that while shop tool and die stuff doesn't seem to cause problems, the damage done in shipment can be time consuming to fix. Mishandling pipe in and out of regional trucks is a headache we have around here.
Parent - - By yojimbo (***) Date 10-25-2013 02:31
All the advice above is standard operation and needs to be followed.  I would add the following procedures that have prevented corrosion issues from my own experience.  There is a condition known as "creep" wherein oxidizing elements will migrate from the area immediately adjacent the weld zone during welding because of heat.  Unfortunately I can't give you any in depth explanation other than what I was instructed which was the neccesity to clean those areas prior to welding to prevent the migration of the corroding elements. 1" was the minimal rule as it was explained to me.  What I ended up working out for myself was as follows.  Prior to tacking the joint I used as barrel flapper disk the kind that works on a pencil/end grinder, and cleaned both inside and outside of the joint back at least 1.5" from the bevel.  Take the time to produce a uniform band of clean SS.  Weld the joint out until flush and ready for a cap and let it cool some [I always preferred to cap stainless when it was cool to the touch] and re-clean the 1.5" and of clean pipe next to the joint, back to its initial smooth clean band of stainless.  This will remove any oxidizing elements that have migrated toward the weld zone.  It really needs to be a smooth uniform strip of clean ss adjacent to the weld.  Cap the joint and complete it by going over it with a SS hand brush to remove color.  The hand brush was usually used in a drawing motion with a slight angle to it and mostly just on the edges of the weld.  I've followed this technique on 304/308/316 SS exposed to all kinds of the worst weather and joints I've welded doing so are still clear of any sign of corrosion 20 years later.  A thing I noticed over the years is that a lot of guys just give it a quick once over with the barrel flapper, you can see it's barely touched and the difference between the metal that's clean and the untouched parts.  Those uncleaned parts will allow corroding elements to migtate into your weld puddle and will produc rust at some point later.  BTW, the whole issue of "creep" and its prevention was introduced to me by a welding instructor who had spent a long part of his career working at the Hanford Nuclear Facility and was a seriously accomplished pipe welder as well as a tremendously competent instructor who trained a lot of nuke welders.  Lastly, a flat 4.5" flapper wheel wont do the job properly, you need to use an end grinder wheel and lose the wire wheel for cleaning, they are too abrasive and even the ones specified as 316 [most of them are 304 which has too much carbon] will leave corroding elements that will rust your welds. If you see any sign of a brown tinge next to your bevel prior to capping the weld, it is the indication of corroding elements that need to be removed before capping. My 2 cents.  Best of luck.
Parent - - By aevald (*****) Date 10-25-2013 03:59
Very nicely put yojimbo, I have worked around and learned alot from a number of those "Hanford" nukey folks. They really are top rate hands with serious craftsmanship to their credit. By chance did you ever have any contact with Buzz or Gary Culbert, T.C. McDowell, or Ed Hue? They, along with others, were some of the welding instructors at CBC in Pasco. Which of course is in Hanford's backyard. Best regards, Allan
Parent - By madisonremovals Date 10-25-2013 04:31
Seems that they mentioned all the standard tips in avoiding rust or corrosion in stainless steel. No missed standard here.
Parent - - By yojimbo (***) Date 10-25-2013 16:17
Aaevald,

It's been over 20 years ago since taking some instruction at Pasco Community and the some of the names are hazy as my time there was always limited to a week or two in between jobs.  The director of the program, yes, it might have been Gary, I've been searching the synapses of late trying to remember.  He'd had some sort of nuero-muscular difficulty with his arms that placed limitations on his ability to weld but his knowlege of technique was so complete he was able to watch a students practice and instruct verbally as to what the student was doing incorrectly in very subtle ways ie, "you are manipulating the cup in this manner, change to this motion to achieve what you are trying to do" and bango- it fell in place.  As mentioned, just short time spells spent with him but very instructive. I'm sure you know of whom I speak.  The name Ed Hue is definetly in the recall and I'm sure I met him but don't recall recieving instruction from him.  Pasco ran a very good, top notch program during that period, the best pipe welding training in WA from my experience in numerous Vocational locations.
Parent - - By 99205 (***) Date 10-25-2013 18:35
Not to hijack this but I was at Hanford for refueling #15 or was it #17, anyway Gary was the CWI doing all the testing there.  I have a lot of respect for him because of his no BS, test coupon inspections.  He had the Boilermakers so pissed they were all going to walk off the job.  LOL
Parent - By yojimbo (***) Date 10-26-2013 00:11
For some brain damaged reason I remember his name as Gary Cole, but you and Aaevald knew him better than I did.  As an instructor he was stringent, but alway in my experience in a helpful and freindly way.  He really seemed to enjoy viewing excellence and encouraged people to aspire toward it.  I imagine it could be trying to work under his standards as a hand with him inspecting but you would certainy have learned and earned your chops by doing so.
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 10-25-2013 11:57
Good post Yojimbo.

I have a lot better understanding of 'Creep" now.

I don't mean to hijack the post but I have a question for you guys.
My experience with ensuring the continued corrosion resistance of SS involes techniques like Yojimbo mentioned, and in high purity situations, post weld pickleing and passivation.
I've lately been working with a customer that is making structural / vacuum containing product from heavy plate and pipe 316L to ASME B31.1.
They weld with 316L Filler, GMAW Spray, tri mix shielding gas on the plate, and 316L Filler GTAW / Argon on the pipe.
Their cleaning techniques are:
Many parts are water jet cut and sand blasted prior to fit up.
Completed assemblies are sand blasted, inside and out, when complete.
Not much cleaning in between, and marginal carbon steel controls in place. (Lots of potential of cross contamination/ carbide precipitation, little attempt to control "Creep")
Previously, the product (mostly product made by others), has experienced reduced fatigue life partly due to corrosion cracking.
I can't get into the details, but the product has a rough faigue life, exposed to a vacuum, exposed to caustic fluids in a paper mill type  environment.

My question is, how effective is sand blasting in removing any carbide precipitation on the surface of 316L?

Thanks for any info,
Tim
Parent - - By Metarinka (****) Date 11-18-2013 03:36
Carbide precipitation is when the alloy has already become sensitized by heat and formed chromium carbides leaving a chromium depleted area in the weld toes or HAZ.  Once that's done nothing save for reweld will fix it. You can grind off the surface or sand blast but it tends to happen through thickness  of the material.

yojimbo had a good post we always called it "uptake" something like nonpreferential alloy uptake or detrimental material contact. Time at temperature will cause just about any metal to diffuse into a weld, and while I don't think it's official we always referred to solid state diffusion as "uptake". Creep is a totally different strain based thing so I would try to keep the names separate.
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 11-18-2013 23:53
Yep, I agree.

It's funny you should comment today, as I had "Creep" as a strain based function that happens after time and pressure, explained to me by Dr. Scott Helzer today at Fab Tech.
His new Meallurgy seminar is very good.

"Uptake" is a better term as it implies the absorbtion of surface oxides into subsequent pass welds issure that we were discussing.

I'm sure Al will supply the correct term shortly...  :lol:

Thanks,
Tim
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 11-19-2013 02:03
A 'meallurgy' seminar?? :confused:  So, what did you have to eat?  :lol:

If Dr. Scott did it I can imagine it was very good.  He has normally done the seminar for 'The How and Why of WPS's' as well.  They still need some work but have gotten better.  Still too little time for all the information they want him to get across.

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By CWI7611 (**) Date 10-25-2013 19:38
Looks like everything that could cause rusting here has been covered except for gloves. I know it's a long shot, but if you are not using clean gloves and you wipe the surface with your gloves you could be carrying some contamination there. Just a thought. I like to look at the simplest things first.

Also I have seen some shops using a Boron paste as a passivating wipe of the welds. Don't know that will keep the rust from forming but it does remove the discoloration from the stainless after it was welded.

Might help, might not. You said "any advice will do". Don't have any further advice. The experts have already weighed in.
Parent - By 99205 (***) Date 10-25-2013 19:55
A paper by Mr. Sperko about this problem.

http://www.sperkoengineering.com/html/Rust.pdf
Parent - By MRWeldSoCal (***) Date 10-28-2013 22:16 Edited 10-28-2013 22:22
Now I didnt read everyones post yet, but I know from experience that even being in the same building as Steel being manufactured can cause rusting at welds.  Dust falling into the bevels over night from griding and particles in the air and settling. If the wire wheele was used on steel even once it can impregnate the weld zone also.  It only takes a little to start the propogation.

I have been in a shop before where stainless was being fabricated next to steel, maybe 50 feet away but all in the same building.  They tried to be as clean as possible and the next morning they would go about thier business and weld everything up like normal.  It became a very big problem.  Had to create a clean room department for this project alone. 

Also the idea of a CHOP saw that even if you have cut steel with before:  Think about that one, there is tons of carbon inside the blade shield and as hot particles move and the wind created in there will loosen particles and bring them right back into the cut you are making.  Stainless like aluminum must be completely clean.

my .02

Jordan
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Stainless steel rusting

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