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Up Topic Welding Industry / ASME Codes / P Number for AISI 4130
- - By jherrera (*) Date 11-05-2013 23:44
Hello everyone, i`m writing an ASME IX WPS. The material is an AISI 4130 Pipe. I can´t find a P number or equivalent for this material. I finded in Asme II a classification for SA-519 gr.4130… This is the type and grade, but, in Asme VIII, or ASME IX, i can`t find this SA. Anyone has any background to share about this? Thaks in advance.
Parent - By Joey (***) Date 11-06-2013 04:47
Is it a must to have the Pno for unlisted base metal? (N/A) or (-) symbol for P No ___ will do.

~Joey~
Parent - - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 11-06-2013 23:41
Julio,
there's no AISI 4130 pipe material. As Al has perfectly explained, AISI standards (AISI is the American Institute of Steel and Iron) simply states the chemical composition of a certain steel identified by a  number. In this case, the number is 4130.
American standards covering pipe materials are ASTM, ASME Section II, API, AWWA. If there's another one, I don't know. ASME Section VIII covers pressure vessels, not pipe. ASME Section IX rules the approval of welding procedures and welders. Pipe materials are also covered by ISO standards, but I'm not familiar with them.
So, chances are that the piping you're talking about is actually SA 519 Gr. 4130. SA means an ASME Section II material.  The majority of SA materials are identical to ASTM ones, the only difference being the letter S before the letter A, which ASTM doesn't have.

P numbers include steels of similar chemical composition and mechanical properties, from which you can expect similar behavior. Welding procedures for the same P numbers are the same, or very close to each other.

I've taken a look at the chemical composition of AISI 4130 and ASTM A-519 Gr. 4130 steels and they're exactly the same.
C: 0,28 - 0,33. Mn: 0,4 - 0,6. Si: 0,2 - 0,35. Cr: 0,8 - 1,10. Mo: 0,15 - 0,25. P and S as low as possible.
So, the P number you're looking for is the one for SA-519 Gr. 4130.

Giovanni S. Crisi
Sao Paulo - Brazil

PS: En que lugar de la Argentina vivís?
Parent - By Joey (***) Date 11-07-2013 02:06
I think Julio's concern is to know the Pno that he can put in his WPS.
I will be surprised if the base metal mentioned has the Pno given in ASME IX.

~Joey~
Parent - - By jherrera (*) Date 11-07-2013 21:19
Giovanni, gracias por tu respuesta. Lo que me estas describiendo es similar a lo que hasta el momento pude averiguar, así que gracias por esa información que es correcta y confirma lo que averigüe. El tema es que en ASME IX, no hay numero P para el SA-519 Gr.4130, por lo que concluyo que tendré que armar el procedimiento de acuerdo a los requerimientos para materiales sin P asignado. Mi consulta era para saber si alguien había tenido alguna experiencia con un caso similar.
La aplicación de mi cliente es una cañería, pero como suele pasar, alguien le esta pidiendo la certificación bajo ASME en lugar de otra norma que seria mas correcta para el material y formato que esta trabajando, consecuencias del desconocimiento que hay en el mercado.
Soy de Buenos Aires, y trabajo con Lincoln Electric aquí en Argentina.
Muchas gracias por tu tiempo para darme la respuesta, Saludos!

Giovanni,
thanks for your answer. The information you`re given to me is correct.
The thing is… there is no P number for SA-519 Gr.4130 in Asme IX, so, i think the WPS has to be made as a no P number material requirements.
Maybe ASME isn`t the right code for this certification, but my client customers are requiring ASME… i think because of the unknloweldge of the right codes for this application. My question was to know if anyone has some experience with this material and ASME IX.
Thaks for your time and your answer.
Parent - - By Joey (***) Date 11-08-2013 02:45 Edited 11-08-2013 02:53
Who is a better player Pele or Maradona?

The above is as hard as your question :lol:

~Joey~
Parent - - By jherrera (*) Date 11-10-2013 22:55
Messi…. jaja.
Parent - By G.S.Crisi (****) Date 11-11-2013 19:49
Messi?
Oh no! Neymar!
Giovanni S. Crisi
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 11-06-2013 20:30
The AISI material specification simply specifies the chemistry of the material. It does not provide any information about the product form, method of manufacture, state of heat treatment, or mechanical properties.

The purpose of qualifying the WPS to a code, such as ASME B&PV code or AWS Structural Welding Code, is to demonstrate the proposed WPS meets the required soundness and mechanical properties of the prescribed code. How can you do that if you have no idea of what the minimum mechanical properties are for the AISI material, i.e., AISI does not state what the minimum tensile strength, yield strength, or elongation are? Consider the fact that the mechanical properties can vary widely from lot to lot because of the influences of heat treatment (as rolled, versus quenched and tempered, normalized, etc.) or method of manufacture, i.e., hot rolled versus cold rolled or machined versus forged. 

Just asking.

Al
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 11-09-2013 14:44 Edited 11-09-2013 15:35
Just because the unlisted material has similar or even the same chemistry as a listed material with an assigned P-number, one cannot simply assign same P-number to the unlisted material. As noted in the previous post, the mechanical properties are dependent on a number of factors that included, but are not limited to chemistry alone.

Provided the customer has simply referenced ASME Section IX as a means of qualifying the WPSs and the welders, one could list the applicable material specification or chemistry in place of a P-number. The entry  for P-number could be simply listed as "Unassigned" or "NA". The WPS is valid for a limited scope of work, but it would not be appropriate or acceptable for the construction of a vessel or piping if it is required to be "stamped" as an ASME vessel or piping. It is not all that unusual for Owners to reference ASME Section IX as the standard to be used to qualify WPSs as a means of standardizing the documentation and the methodology used by their subcontractors and vendors. The customer could has just as easily referenced AWS B2.1 or one of the AWS DXX standards as the working document to follow when qualifying welders and WPSs.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By jherrera (*) Date 11-10-2013 22:55
Thanks for your answer. I`m gonna check the B2.1 standard. Thanks again.
Up Topic Welding Industry / ASME Codes / P Number for AISI 4130

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