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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Welding is not a Trade
- - By Blaster (***) Date 12-04-2013 00:27
I have read before that welding was declared not to be a trade by congress(?) back during WWI, but rather it was to be considered "a tool of the trades".  This was supposedly brought on by some kind of strike related to welding railroad(?) that was fouling up war production.

Is this true?

Where can I find this published in a legitimate source?

I am pretty sure I saw this in a history section of a welding text book 15 or 20 years ago, but I can't find it now.  Can't seem to find it online either.  Maybe it was all a hallucination?

Thanks
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 12-04-2013 02:13
Actually, I believe it was a meeting convened before WWI by the Interstate Commerce Commission. The concern was raised because the Republicans were crapping their skivvies because of the organizing activities taking place at the turn of the century. They were concerned that if welding was considered a skilled trade, they would organize and form a union. Their fear was that if the welder's organized and if they were to strike they would "control" the economy.

The interesting thing is that welding was in its infancy at the time, yet they saw the importance welding could play in manufacturing.

I'll see if I can find anything definitive. I could have my dates wrong. It wouldn't be the first time I've come to my senses with my foot in my mouth.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By Sourdough (****) Date 12-04-2013 04:38
If you ask me, it's not a trade anymore. It's more like a way for someone with no qualifications to make a quick buck before they realize they don't know as much as they have been telling everyone and themselves they do.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 12-04-2013 22:54
If the shoe fits .......

Al
Parent - - By Sourdough (****) Date 12-05-2013 05:56
Al.....I have found the one who is the most well informed, most experienced, and most decorated megalomaniac in this forum. Thanks buddy!! This only took 3 days....see you in 6 months ace....
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 12-05-2013 15:02
:cool:

Al
Parent - - By pipewelder_1999 (****) Date 12-04-2013 15:17 Edited 12-04-2013 15:23
I would imagine labor unions themselves would not like welders to be organized.

With the advances made in communication the ability to organize should is greater. (My opinion). The overhead and organization structure is similar to that of done businesses.

I would love to know what designates a trade myself. There are hundreds of unions and I know they are not trade specific. They get into all areas regardless of what their "organization" is called.

Here is something related in a paper. I couldn't read all of it on my phone.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1350&dat=19820512&id=VOVPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=pgIEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6737,7534942

Here is where I first read anything related a year or two ago. http://www.columbia.edu/~jrs9/BNY-welders.html

"POWER TO THE WELDERS" !
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 12-05-2013 17:17
No, it IS far beyond that.

It is a WAY OF LIFE!
Parent - - By Blaster (***) Date 12-05-2013 20:27
Wow pipewelder, that is some very detailed history there.  Interesting, and thanks for posting.

From what I have found, or not been able to find, it doesn't appear to me that there is any legal reason there isn't a welders trade union.  I was under the impression that it might have been legally prohibited, and that is what I hoped to clear up.

BTW, please no need for someone to jump in and turn this thread into whether there should or shouldn't be one.  I only had the question in hopes of learning some historical background in anticipation of questions I might receive from approval committees regarding a welder training program proposal I am currently working on.

Thanks for the replies.
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 12-05-2013 21:23
The US department of labor classifies welding as "semi-skilled" labor.

This fact might make it hard for a welders union to get traction.....

On the other hand... Probably about 5-10% of Machinest Union (IAM) dues payers are actually machinests.

I couldn't care less one way or the other whether welders make their own union... The cream always rises to the top.

The history on the other hand is very interesting.....
Parent - - By Metarinka (****) Date 12-06-2013 01:46
I would like welding to be considered a trade. I think we are confusing a trade with a union.  Electricians and auto mechanics, NDT and other various skilled trades have certification tests. If implemented well this really keeps the riff-raff from calling themselves a "certified X" if they aren't. It would be nice if there was a card you could get that at least proves you have the bare amount of book and technical skills to make welds to say D1.1 standards, and the legal backing to not allow people to work on certain jobs unless they carried that cert. Same way you don't let plumbers or electricians on a site unless they are certified.

We all love to complain how plumbers make so much an hour for a lot less outlay in tools.
Parent - - By Blaster (***) Date 12-06-2013 03:33
I agree.

Our current condition with "certifications" could possibly be argued to be worse than not having a credential at all.

I don't think there could be a greater amount of misconception among people of what a "certified welder" can be counted on to be able to do or to know.

Many people mistakenly think that term indicates competence as a metal worker rather than what we know it to mean.  Including too many people who SHOULD know better.

As you know it is possible a "certified welder" isn't that skilled even in the process they tested with, isn't proficient with an air arc, torch, multiple welding processes, math, blueprints, layout, fitting, and so forth.  They may have minimal or almost zero knowledge on basic procedures, consumable selection, machine set up, etc.

While a non - "certified welder" might be much more proficient both as a welder and as a fabricator.

It is always disheartening to see an experienced trade welder doing things wrong because he doesn't know better.

Personally I would like to see industry adopt meaningful credentials that tests knowledge, along with performance testing that includes torch and air arc work if that would be normal for work performed under a particular code, as a minimum standard for code work.

I know some employers / contractors want to keep standards low in the belief it will keep their labor cost down.  But some of the things some guys do, or dont know, makes me scratch my head on that line of thinking.

There certainly is no shortage of workers who really want papers but who have no interest in acquiring welding knowledge or becoming skilled with the process they want to be " certified" with.
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 12-06-2013 19:45
Unfortunatly the AWS itself is probably the biggest offender when it comes to adding confusion when it comes to the terms "certified" and "qualified" as they apply to welders......  All in an attempt to leverage the percieved need for more ATF's (accredited test facillities)

While it has it's faults... The CWB I believe handles this issue better than both the US and Europe (ISO/EN's)
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 12-06-2013 19:48
Blaster... The AWS   "SENSE"  Program... Both curriculum guides and specifications...   Do exactly what you think should be done... 

Sadly it is pooly marketed and disrespected.   There is great value in my opinion in all 3 SENSE levels.

Maybe someday they will get traction.
Parent - - By Blaster (***) Date 12-06-2013 20:26
Are the written tests that are referenced in the sense books something I could get from AWS to use in my program if I wanted?

I already have a 4-hour 300 question general welding knowledge capstone exam the students must pass with a 90% or higher to complete the program, but I would consider using some or all of the AWS tests if I could preview them and they looked like valuable additions or even replacements.
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 12-06-2013 20:50
Blaster

Being a SENSE school is easy to do... Membership is VERY inexpensive and the Standards and WPS's along with the 3 AWS memberships that go with the annual fees more than pay for the expense.

The written tests are pretty good... Much better than before the 2006-8 revisions........    Not perfect, but comprehensive in all 4 processes, cutting, safety, print reading, symbols etc.

You don't need to use the National Regestry to be a SENSE school... So those costs are not a requiement...  You can just use the curriculum and extras if that's what you want.   Which was my choice, even though I served on the Educators subcommittee on SENSE during the revisions..
Parent - By Metarinka (****) Date 12-06-2013 20:12
I agree.  unfortunately I'm not certain of the process and who would lead. It would take a law change to put weight behind a general welding certification in the same vein as what plumbers or electricians have. The AWS would need to be the one to lead the charge and as you say it would probably be opposed by certain industry groups who would complain about the availability of certified welders and cost of labor. 

It would be really nice to have a piece of paper that says I'm qualified to read blue-prints, make measurements, interpret a WPS, setup a machine select the right consumable and all the other tasks associated with being a welder that aren't just passing a bend test
- - By Northweldor (***) Date 12-06-2013 23:25
FWIW, as a neighbor.... I think part of the problem is the weakness of the US apprenticeship system, which, when I checked a few years ago, had fewer registered apprentices than Canada, with 10 times the population! Even though anti-union sentiment was always strong here, (I was fired in the early fifties, as an apprentice, for siding with a group of welders who tried to affiliate with the Pipefitters) we have much better trade recognition in all areas than the the US because of government support and regulation of trade standards.

When I try to research registered apprentice sponsors in the US, the strongest sponsors in most states are Federal prisons!
Parent - By Tommyjoking (****) Date 12-07-2013 01:49
I keep hearing from various contractors and union halls about particular jobs.....cant get anyone to pass the test.....well I love that cause that is what makes my living these days.
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 12-07-2013 09:33
Northweldor,

In the unfortunate event some of us find ourselves on the wrong side of the law, we could get a good job in the joint teaching convicts the welding apprenticeship program. It's gotta be better duty than the laundry room.

Unless you are in the Building and Trades side of a union, you're training is going to be "on the job". Most times this not a formal apprenticeship system. Only what misinformation you will garner from other's who have just "always done it that way". You will learn all sorts of scientific terms like "crystalized welds" and "rod trajectory".
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Welding is not a Trade

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