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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Pipe rail fab tips
- - By Eric Carroll (**) Date 12-08-2013 21:20
Every once in awhile we get a pipe rail job, stainless, steel or aluminum. As I have never worked in a large production fab shop, most of our techniques are self taught. The two areas I would like some tips on- they are outside corners with a post- I see some pipe rail with a rounded corner that looks cleaner than a 45* miter joint sitting on top of a notched post. I figure there is some sort of compound miter done to all three parts to get this look? Second is when cutting on the bandsaw or cold saw how do you keep the miters square? We use a large piece of angle on the feed table or the out feed table to square the next cut off of the previous one. Sometimes the guys will use torpedo level too. I even just eyeball some stuff. But I need to streamline this process, because when the cuts are bad on a high end stainless job it adds a lot of finishing time to hide the bad cuts. Thanks for any advice.
Parent - By tazmannusa (**) Date 12-08-2013 23:17
Hello Eric
I have done them several different ways over the years but for a nice rounded tight corner, weld elbows seem to be the best. For miter cuts on the small stuff I usually just eyeball it but on the larger I just run a straight line on both sides
  Tom
Parent - - By Smooth Operator (***) Date 12-09-2013 00:54
Eric , best thing for a corner is a "formed side out" which is made by R.B. Wagner out of Millwakee , WI........Best way to cope "fish mouths" is with a manual  notcher ( for 90*) or a Linders abrasive belt notcher for the rakes ( slopes)........ After about a 100 notches you get real good at doing it by eye........
Parent - - By Eric Carroll (**) Date 12-09-2013 05:02
We have a iron worker with a notcher, and a mill and a notching jig from JD2. So the notching is no problem. I really want to know how larger shops that do alot of rail do their miters and keep them in line as the material is fed through the saw.
Parent - By Superflux (****) Date 12-09-2013 07:22
Not sure how the big shops do it.
In my "one man band" shop, I would take a center head and mark Top dead Center on the far end of a full stick of pipe and then recheck for TDC before each new cut.
If you were doing several cuts, as in making dozens of miter cuts from a singe joint of pipe, it would be time saving to tack a piece of flat bar on the far end and leave torpedo level on it. Remember, the level must be perfectly perpendicular to the pipe/tube.
Then again, depending on your feed table, it might be better to put the flat bar on the bottom to keep your stock indexed the same for every cut.

We might ought to repost this in the "Tricks of the Trade" section.
Parent - - By lo-hi (**) Date 12-09-2013 12:05
I use a Ellis saw that the saw head swivels and the stock stays straight. Then a table for  feeding stock. Tack or clamp a piece tube or angle on the end of the stock for reference to square. Hope this helps.  Hows your uncle Chris doin? Perley
Parent - - By Eric Carroll (**) Date 12-09-2013 14:38
That's pretty much how we do it now-Ellis saw too!
Chris is doing well- thanks for reminding me to call him!
Parent - - By yojimbo (***) Date 12-09-2013 17:14
I'm finishing up the last 150 LF of a 2100F rail job now and we've dealt with the angle points [90 degrees and down] as usual which is to miter the cuts and round off the outside corner with a 36 grit pad after welding.  You mention a rounded corner turn you've seen and small elbows for those turns have been brought up.  The difficulty with using those, which I considered for this project is the geometry of the lower rail.  If you use an elbow on the top rail you would need to use the same radius elbow on any intermediate or lower rails to keep those rails in line with each other or you would have to use two shorter elbows [or cut one in half] on your lower rails to keep them in an equal vertical plane.  If you take a minute to visualize this it becomes quite apparant.  I discarded the idea for using elbows on the angle points as they created a lot more work and cost and a lot less productivity.  The results on the corners meet code and spec. [well not exactly an AWS WPS but no one is complaining] and they look fine, clean, rounded, safe and functional.

All the railing is 1.5" sched. 40 A500 however.  If I was doing a stainless railing I might need to experiment with the standard mitered corners/sanding pads and reconsider elbows/bent turns but it would also likely require a redesign of the railings, taking the post out of the x/y corner coordinate and putting in 2 posts offset from the corner to allow for elbow/bent turns.

I use a Dewalt saw with carbide blades [having the best luck with Diablo blades for usage/sharpening and no cracks/loss of teeth] and really don't find the alignment of miters that problematic.  Usually just keep the seam on top for reference and a torpedo level to align miters to each other keeps me well within 1/16" of matching vertical planes.  A formica sample [grab a handfull on your next trip to Lowes] makes a handy spacing tool for the gap [among their many other adjustment uses] between the miters and tack the corners flat on the table then roll them up to whatever angle of turn is required and fit the notch of the post to the angle point.  Most of our angle point turns [all of them actually] also required a change of slope as well.

I'm not sure you will increase productivity using elbows at the corners, they will take more fitting/welding/finishing than miters.  If you are tooled correctly, bending the corners could be an option but really precision bends are a challenge.  Even Wagner Co. whose products I use extensively have a bend tolerance in their products beyond what I could justify [check me on this but I believe their catalogue states +/- 1degree] which might not sound like much but at 42" [standard guardrail height] is just shy of 3/4" out of alignment and I've found anything beyond 1/4 of a degree becomes visually apparant which, beyond safety concerns, is the ruling considerating for railing work, ie. they have to look right.

BTW another little trick I discovered [won't work on stainless but great for carbon steel] is using nozzle gel for lubricating your hole saws when notching.  Removes the need for cleaning prior to welding and does a great job for keeping your hole saws lubed.  I use Lennox 1 7/8" for the 1.5" pipe on a Bailiegh TN 250 and get around 125-150 notches per hole saw on the 1.5" [was getting 300 notches per hole saw on the 3/4" pickets and there were 9500 notches needed for that little part of the job].  Also found out my carbide saw sharpening guy could resharpen hole saws for 6 buck a piece and I usually got 2-3 more sharpenings from each one which lowered my cost considerably.

It's been fun, and somewhat profitable, everyone is happy with the work but truthfully I'll be a little glad to see this job finished.
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 12-09-2013 19:12
I agree, depending upon the cosmetic looks involved the pipe fittings on the top rail will mess with most people, at least if you have a post directly in the corner.  There are options there but they can be just as time consuming. 

I usually used the coper on the ironworker for most other fit up but it can be easily done with a cut off grinder or chopsaw.  Once you get used to it they go pretty fast.

Try using the inside seam, usually a rise in the seam on the inside from the fusion process, as your indicator to keep each end in line.  Seldom bothered with all the other attachments and levels. 

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By Darrell_B (*) Date 12-09-2013 23:16
3 corner post joints- the way I have done these in the past, and the way I think they come out looking the best is as follows:

cut your post to length at a 45 degrees. While it is still in the saw vise, set up a stop with a spacer. Rotate the post 1 quarter turn and cut at 45 degrees again. This will give you a kind of heart-shaped cut.

Repeat with your 2 top rails. They should all fit together quite well, and present a neat weld joint.

I cut all my railing parts with a cold chop saw.
- - By Eric Carroll (**) Date 12-09-2013 20:35 Edited 12-10-2013 02:29
]I guess there is no better way to do the miters than what we are doing now. I'll just have to save up for a plasma table with a tube attachment! I looked around town as I drove around and found an example of the outside corner I'm asking about- after looking at about 20 different corners, I'm pretty sure they used the Wagner parts. The thinned area about an inch under the top rail led me to this assumption. http://i.imgur.com/dpWTmGi.jpg
Pic is of six 45s done 1/4 turn from each other. Worked pretty good.
Parent - By yojimbo (***) Date 12-10-2013 05:17
Eric-

I think that is the result most people are using/referring to.  All that needs to be done is sand down the outside corner weld and the top of rail weld to about the 90 degree inside point and you have a decent looking corner post.  Those welds are clean and uniform so the sanding is a cosmetic option, time consuming [3-5 minutes per corner post] but makes a nice looking turn.

I can relate to driving around looking at samples of other work.  Railing can drive you nuts looking for that appropriate cosmetic finish that will meet the job spec and still make some money.

I think you've found the sweet spot.  Wouldn't fret it beyond what you've got.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Pipe rail fab tips

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