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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / Prohibited weld positions on prequalified joints 2.17.2
- - By MichCabo Date 02-12-2014 17:01
According with the note C on figures 3.3 and 3.4, single bevel and J bevel joint are prohibited to be welded in flat position.  This apply for cyclic loads applications.
What would be the reason of this? My preliminary conclusion is that the horizontal position ensures thin beads, therefore low heat input.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 02-12-2014 18:49
Note C  directs to 2.18.2 and uses the word "shall" in it's prohibition and then follows up with the prhase "...prohibited where V-groove or U-groove joints are practicable"

What does practicable mean?   and when can you say that it's not practicable to use V and U ?     That's above my paygrade.

My "opinion" for the reason single bevel and J-grooves are prohibited is simply that root access is more difficult in the flat position.
Parent - - By MichCabo Date 02-12-2014 19:18
My understanding is that "non-practicable" stands for corner joints were a V or u bevels are not possible to prepare.
What's the relation between root access and cyclic loads applications?, Root access may be a good conclusion for any application that requires full penetration.
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 02-12-2014 20:16
::::::shrug.... I guess it's all above my paygrade then  :)

There are some other posters who likely will pitch in with better reasoning.

BTW... Welcome to the forum
Parent - By TimGary (****) Date 02-13-2014 14:01
Cyclicly loaded grooves tend to require full penetration welds with through fusion to the root.
When welding from one side, steps must be taken to ensure acceptable root fusion and profile in order to enhance cyclic fatigue life.
Are you making full or partial penetration welds?
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-13-2014 17:40 Edited 02-13-2014 17:59
The issue is that one member, with the square edge preparation, is "thicker" relative to the dispersion of the thermal energy of the liquid weld pool. Essential,any joint detail that includes two members that have different thickness, the member that is thicker experiences a higher cooling rate than the thinner member. The thicker member has more thermal mass and multiple routes through which the thermal energy can dissipate. This can result in incomplete fusion to the thicker member.

Metals with higher thermal conductivity (Aluminum) can present a real challenge when bevel or J-grooves are used. It is common to experience incomplete fusion in the corner of the root pass against the "thicker" member.

Al
Parent - - By MichCabo Date 02-17-2014 13:11
Thanks Al,

What would be the difference doing welds in horizontal position instead of flat position? Why do you believe that is easier to ensure full fusion of the root in horizontal position?
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 02-17-2014 13:31
The joint Al describes his drawing above in my opinion really needs to be thought of as a combination of groove and fillet weld.

The Canadian Welding Bureau agrees and uses this profile for a combination Fillet/Groove performance qualification option.

The perpendicular plane at the joint root is a fillet that requires full fusion

The beveled plane is much more easily fused in a root pass.

A  slightly wider root opening offers the option of a split-root (two stringers) which allows the operator to focus on each edge specifically.  This is much easier to accomplish in the horizontal orientation. (gravity doing its work)   In the flat position the weld toe tends to bridge, or miss one edge or the other unless an exceedingly large root opening is used, which makes nill the benefit of the single bevel from an engineering/cost standpoint.

Try this single bevel configuration with a narrow root opening (single pass) and even with MCAW and FCAW, the most deep penetrating processes, the welders will fail and fail and fail on the root bends; almost always on the "fillet" side of the root . ( I have observed this in hundreds of actual tests)   This fact does not fill me with confidence when a production scenero is presented without being well thought out.
Parent - - By MichCabo Date 02-17-2014 15:23
This is interesting, I'm agree on your comments. I have some examples in the shop floor that can be explained with this.

Its also interesting why AWS qualifies a welder in flat position once he achieve single bevel joint in horizontal position.  

It may be necessary to make a different test to qualify a welder on this kind of joints where flat position its the only way to perform the process.
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 02-17-2014 16:05
AWS, as with many other organizations, is always under pressure to simplify things.  The fewer the tests required the simpler and easier and CHEAPER it is to get a number of people qualified. 

The main purpose is to make as sure as reasonable the percentage probability of successful weld completion without having to do NDT on every inch of every weld.  Thus, the inclusion of on position as qualified when another is welded to.  Also, certain process/electrode usage that qualifies for another. Also, groove weld qualification making one qualified to do fillets. 

The goal has been to minimize expense and redundancy.  It does not always achieve the best results.  But, are they acceptable results?  According to the appropriate code committees.. Yes.  According to many inspectors... No.  But, we don't have a loud enough voice on the committees. 

The object is to give the customer and building jurisdictions the satisfaction that even with periodic inspections the work supplied will stand up to the required loads and usage with high safety factors for the public. 

Having said all that, a customer, or even an interested fabricator/erector can test to higher standards than the code requires.  Give one more test.  So what if it takes a little time and steel.  You now have more confidence the welder can produce in exactly the joint and position in use. 

Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 02-17-2014 16:08 Edited 02-17-2014 16:24
Absolutely !

Building a quality system that exceeds code requiements is often the best practice!

The code is not the end, it's the minimum!

Testing and training welders on things that mimic what is seen in production is valuable.  Simply adhering to code for the purpose of compliance has questionable value in situations where production differs from the testing configurations called out by the code.

Edit: 
Countermeasures to an issue like the one the OP describes can be:

1)  increased testing of welders in configurations more like the ones used in production.

2)  implementing detailed work instructions that may include weld maps or bead sequencing on "job types" that have proven to be problematic.

3)  additional training for engineering, leadership and welders to support 1 & 2

4) engineering review of joints that commonly fail inspection on the shop floor.... If a V groove is preferable to a single bevel in the flat positon and can be prepared without a great increase in cost, and;  If the base metal is not too thick, a v-groove with a minimum allowable included angle that still allows access to the root may be preferable to the single bevel that is used in the horizontal position.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-17-2014 18:11 Edited 02-17-2014 20:56
This is the joint detail I use for horizontal grooves. The lower edge has a 15 degree bevel angle. I prefer the small bevel to allow some of the flux to run out of the joint when using self shielded FCAW. The heavy flux tends to build up in the lower corner if there is no bevel on the lower surface. The heavy slag increases the chance the welder will entrap slag in the lower corner. Allowing some of the excess flux to run off improves the chance of getting complete fusion in the lower corner.

It also works when using E7024 or E7028, but how many people are still using those electrodes in the field?

You know my concerns with getting complete fusion in the root of fillet welds. This detail seems to alleviate most of the problems associated with incomplete fusion.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 02-17-2014 18:59
If the forum had a *like* button, I would click on it here :)
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-17-2014 20:55
Close enough! That coming from one of the leading experts in the field of welding, I'll take it!
Best regards - Al
Parent - - By MichCabo Date 02-18-2014 12:58
I was almost convinced. Nevertheless D1.1 prohibits the flat position on single bevel joints even do a backgouging can be performed.

The backgouging allows to eliminate the lack of fusion on the root. These prohibition may have something related with the metallurgy of the weld, I think.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-18-2014 14:18
Didn't say that it is prequalified and no one is twisting your arm to use it. I just said that it is the detail I prefer for horizontal butt joints when using self shielded FCAW.

Al
Parent - By 46.00 (****) Date 02-19-2014 22:16
It is also a very good joint design for that position. It will work for any of the Fluxed Welding processes.
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Technical Standards & Publications / Prohibited weld positions on prequalified joints 2.17.2

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