Not logged inAmerican Welding Society Forum
Forum AWS Website Help Search Login
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / wps
- - By ed17 (*) Date 05-27-2014 18:07
Hi just a quick question about writing wps? How do you include the backing material used besides in the "joint design used"? Do you have to put it in the "identification #"? I looked in the D1.1 and the D1.8 and could not find it!! thanks so much!!
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 05-27-2014 18:29
Did you look at Annex N?

Al
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 05-27-2014 23:31
Are you using the downloadable forms from AWS or a custom form for your WPS?  Every form I have seen, even custom ones,  have a spot just a couple of lines down from the "Joint Design Used" location to include any backing material if used.  Though, upon some quick research, I am looking at a custom one right now where it is down at the bottom of the page with several other items this company includes in their info on the WPS. 

The "Indentification #" spot is for any identifying system you or the Fabricator developing the WPS chooses to use to track numbers for various work making it easier to locate a WPS for a specific job according to material, process, joint design, or any other items that work for you.  Keep it simple. 

Or, are you asking what specifically to put in the space?  Steel, Group II steels, ceramic, A572 Gr 50, A36, etc. 

A little more info would help in order to give more specific answers.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By ed17 (*) Date 06-05-2014 20:59
hi thanks so much for getting back to me!! no i just thought that for example when you are welding a butt joint and its B-U4b-GF are you suppose to put it there? yea i know about when the wps says "BACKING MATERIAL"  A36 OR CERAMIC OR COPPER!! Also our wps have just above this Backing YES OR NO!! THANKS AGAIN!!
Parent - - By goldybowen21 (**) Date 07-02-2014 20:34
okay on this note of wps's im doing procedures under asme section 9 and I don't know where to begin does anyone know a good site that would have a basic outline I could follow....

thanks Landon
- - By ed17 (*) Date 06-05-2014 21:07
HI just another quick question? i know in the D1.1 is says you DO NOT have to preheat your test plate if its 1 1/2 and under or 50 degree! But in the D1.8 book it says in table A-I Heat input Envelope Testing-heat input,preheat and interpass temps max preheat preheat temp 125 degrees F SO I GUESS WHAT IM ASKING IS YOU CAN TAKE IT TO THAT HEAT BUT DON TGO OVER THE INTERPASS TEMP RIGHT? THANKS AGAIN!!
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 06-06-2014 01:44
Ed,

One thing at a time here so we make hopefully clarify the multiple questions:

First, NO, D1.1 does not say you don't have to preheat test plates under 1 1/2" and/or under 50° F.  As you did not specify Category A or B?  Now, ASSUMING you are using a Category B since that is the Low Hydrogen bracket that 95% or better of welding, especially welder performance testing, falls under then YES, plate that is 1 1/2" or less does not REQUIRE preheat unless the temperature is below 50° F. 

Second, D1.8 Annex A is dealing with the heat envelope testing of filler materials.  It has absolutely nothing to do with D1.1 and welder test plates for qualification. 

Third, there is a difference between preheat, interpass, and max temperatures.  Even max temp, don't confuse it with temps during the welding process and too close to the weld in progress. 

So, FOR THIS ANNEX APPLICATION,when the test piece has been preheated you run your first pass, if upon preparing to run the following pass the temp does not exceed the max interpass temp but is over the min preheat/interpass temp then you are good to go.  If it is over the interpass temp, let it cool.  If it is under the min preheat temp, preheat again until it is where it needs to be.

Now, under production welding that qualifies for D1.8 requirements you have a max interpass temp of 550° F.  So, you can't let your members get over that temp, time and distance for taking this max interpass temp is in D1.8.  But this does not apply directly to your question about Annex A. 

I'm not sure why you are going to this Annex.  It seems out of place with the way you started your question.  This is not dealing with production welding nor with welder performance qualification.  And you are not often going to have to deal with the heat input envelope testing. 

Now, I got greatly sidetracked when I started this, if someone else has dealt with it while I was away I apologize for doubling the responses.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-06-2014 16:32 Edited 06-06-2014 16:42
Let's remember the code mandated information is the minimum information that must be listed.

Next, differentiate between a prequalified WPS and one qualified by testing (per clause 4).

It is highly suspect to believe the contractor qualified several coupons to permit the use of ceramic, copper, and other  "non-steel" backing materials. Only steel backing composed of a material listed in Table 3.1 is prequalified, all others must be qualified by testing.

My philosophy is that a WPS serves the same purpose as a recipe found in a cookbook. The cook book assumes the user is not a professional cook, thus it include step by step instructions to the user about the proper implementation of the recipe. It lists the ingredients and the proper amounts of each. The amount of each ingredient is precise. In other words, it does not say "use a pinch of this and a dash of that" it says "a 1/4 teaspoon of this and 4 tablespoon of that," it is precise. It tells the reader to mix the dry ingredients before incorporating the wet ingredients and mix until a smooth consistency is achieved. It leaves nothing to the readers imagination. It tells the reader how large a pan is needed and it even tells the reader to grease the pan. It tells the reader to preheat the oven to a specified temperature, but it does not go into detail about how to turn the oven on and adjust the temperature. The instructions that came with the oven should include that information. Likewise, the WPS should not have to include how to turn on the welding machine, that should all be included in the operator's manual when the welding machine was purchased. Once the oven is preheated, the recipe lists the approximate cooking time. Because of variations due to altitude, the cooking time can vary, so the recipe provides a method to test the item being cooked to ensure it is cooked thoroughly. It usually uses a thermometer, as in the case of cooking meat or making candy, or in the case of brownies, it will tell the "would be cook" to stick a tooth pick into the batter to see if any batter adheres to the tooth pick when it is withdrawn. If the tooth pick is clean, the brownies are done and ready to eat as soon as they cool.

The WPS should take the same approach. It should be written with the assumption that the welder is not an expert nor is the welder an engineer. It should be written so that the average welder can derive all the information needed to make a "code" compliant weld. Herein lies the problem. All too often the WPS is written by an engineer for another engineer. Lost in the paper chase is the fact that the individual using the WPS is not an engineer. Case in point; under the heading "Base Metal:" "All P-23 base metals." How many welders have a clue what a P-23 base metal is? How many know that it includes 6061 and 6063 aluminum alloys? If the welder doesn't know that P-23 is a 60XX aluminum, what practical purpose, other than meeting a code requirement, does the WPS serve? Another example: "Joint Details:" All grooves and Fillets. Is that sufficient to provide the welder with direction about what groove angle is required, what root opening is required, etc.? Hell no. So again, what practical value is that WPS serving? In my opinion, no practical purpose. It will go into the circular file as it should.

The WPS should provide the welder with all the information needed to make a code compliant welded joint/connection. If the WPS is not going to actually provide the detailed information regarding groove angle, root opening, type of backing, etc. it should direct the welder to a document that does. That approach works if and when the welder has easy access to the document referenced by the WPS.  If the WPS refers the welder to AWS D1.1-2010 Figures 3.3 and 3.4, but he does not have access to the code, what is the point. Poof! Wasted paper, wasted time, and the goal is missed.

I use Annexes. The WPS references an annex for a list of the base metals (by ASTM, ASME, API, ABS material specification, or military standard) and the product form. The information included in the annex is the information that can be found marked on the material (you will not find the P-number, M-number, or S-number stamped or stenciled on the raw material).  I reference another annex for the actual joint details and the tolerance. The annex lists only those joints that will be used in production. If a new project required a joint detail not already in the annex, the annex is easily revised to include the new detail. The WPS, already reviewed and approved, is not affected. I even include an annex for visual acceptance criteria. In the world of a job shop, each incoming job is different from the last one completed. The new project may be to a different code or it may have different requirements imposed by the customer. The annex addresses those differences so the welder is aware of the new requirements.

Managements responsibility includes providing information to the workers. In many situations the root cause of a major foul-up is management's failure to communicate the project requirements to the production floor. Then the finger pointing starts and it is usually the workers that gets blamed for not meeting  quality requirements.

It reminds me of a client that was up in arms about the quality of the work produced by the welders. "I don't know if it is because of the argon they're breathing or if it is in their genes, but I'm completely fed up with my entire crew. I just want to fire the lot of them and hire new welders!" was his opening comment. Not even a "good morning, I'm Mr. XYZ, how was you trip?" Nothing, just shear exasperation and desperation!

"Ok, so you have some serious problems. Let's see if we can sort through them and find some solutions." was my response. "Oh, by the way, I'm Al and I'm here to help you."

To make a long story short, The company was a job shop that built products to AWS, ASME, and military requirements. The main issue was that the welders were not meeting the quality requirements of the projects and the reject rate was, let's just say, not acceptable.

I asked this CEO if the welders were being provided with the information that pertained to each project. In other words, how was the actual acceptance criteria for each project relayed to the welders? His response was that it shouldn't make a difference to the welder, after all a good weld is a good weld regardless of what code was being applied.

I asked if each welder was provided a copy of the appropriate welding code. "Are you serious? Do you know how much that would cost?" he shouted. I mean that poor fellow was on the ragged edge. If we were meeting in a high rise I would have been concerned that he would jump out the window.

I asked if he had a copy of AWS D1.1, a copy ASME B31.3, and a copy of MIL-STD-278 (this was a few years back). He said that he did. So, I asked him to grab them so I could check something. I opened each of the standards to the sections on visual criteria (of course 278 referred to a different standard, which he didn't have). I pointed out that AWS have three different visual criteria and B31.3 listed several different visual criteria depending on the nature of the loading or fluid service class. What was acceptable to one standard wasn't necessarily acceptable to a different standard. Again, I asked him how he conveyed the different acceptance requirements to the welders doing the actual work. The light came on and he said, "It looks like we have some work to do. When can you get started?"

By the way, no welders were hurt, injured, or fired and the reject rate plummeted. Another happy ending and another check deposited in the bank account.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By Mwccwi (***) Date 06-07-2014 00:57
Al,
I love your explanations with the stories.
You are"the Man":)
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-07-2014 02:27
I'm heartened that someone likes them. :smile:

Al
Parent - By 46.00 (****) Date 06-07-2014 03:12
Easy money! I like it!
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / wps

Powered by mwForum 2.29.2 © 1999-2013 Markus Wichitill