Bay Bridge welds

Date 06-16-2014 10:22 Edited 06-16-2014 10:28

Al
this is not about politics
or top down thing, even though love a womans top down (ooooppppssss did I type that) :wink:

this is a bottom up thing,love a womans bottom up (omg did it again) :wink:

this is about having pride in your work
do your work to the best you can
everyone should
just my ideas
Kent

By 803056

Date 06-16-2014 11:12

That's the root of the problem, it is politics. From the decision to use the Chinese instead of a domestic manufacture to firing the inspectors causing the ruckus. It is politics.

Al

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 06-16-2014 13:38

Kent,

I'm going to jump on the 'Yes it is politics' bandwagon. Most all Special Inspections are Politics.

They are the ones behind the IBC and all the amendments to it that get adopted before it gets approved for usage and why the 2006 is just now starting to finish the adoption cycle and go into use.

They are the ones in all the govt jobs directing all the activities of inspections.

In this case they did the purchasing, picking the contractor, assigning the applicable codes to be inspected to, modified the codes over and over, ignored the codes even after modifying them, modifying their own Contract Documents, hiring and firing and hiring and firing inspectors to get ones that would over look problems in order to get the job fast and cheap, shall we keep going.

Yes, it was/is about politics. But, it should not have been.

Oh, the sign posted earlier, I have a version in my office: We do three kinds of work here. FAST, GOOD, and CHEAP. You can pick any combination of two. But, You need to consider the following as you choose: If it is FAST and GOOD it won't be CHEAP. If it is FAST and CHEAP it won't be GOOD. If it is GOOD and CHEAP it won't be FAST.

The CA politicians wanted FAST and CHEAP... Looks like they got what they paid for, it isn't any GOOD!!

He Is In Control, Have a Great DAy, Brent

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 06-16-2014 14:38

>Oh, the sign posted earlier, I have a version in my office: We do three kinds of work here. FAST, GOOD, and CHEAP. You can pick any combination of two. But, You need to consider the following as you choose: If it is FAST and GOOD it won't be CHEAP. If it is FAST and CHEAP it won't be GOOD. If it is GOOD and CHEAP it won't be FAST.

Boy if that ain't the truth!

"Stolen".... to be used as a signature line

By rjtinsp (*)

Date 06-16-2014 15:16

This is the modern version of "project mangaement". You have people holding important positions with huge egos making decisions with limited knowldge of the building process, in this case welding. Professional engineers with no practical experiance in welding beyond a design manual or an ocasional site visit. I would bet the farm that these caltrans managers would not impress us much with their knowledge of welding processes and quality control beyond the jargan they learn in hundreds of hours of meetings. Their confidance that they did nothing wrong proves this for me.

Ramon

By 803056

Date 06-17-2014 03:37

The problem is, California politicians wanted it cheap, but paid through the nose to accelerate delivery.

According to what I've read, they ended up paying more than the American bidder's quote and they probably can't sue for damages considering the work was completed overseas in a country that has proven themselves to be less than good business partners. It is difficult to feel any empathy for anyone doing business with the Chinese. Tainted dog food, tainted dry wall, tainted baby formula, poisoned toys (remember the Thomas the Train incident?), the list grows longer by the day.

One shouldn't be surprised to get bitten by fleas when one sleeps with a dog.

A big raspberry to anyone that tells me, "But they are getting better!"

Now New York is following in California's footsteps. I understand several bridge projects in the New York City area are using Chinese steel. Stupid is as stupid does. Clearly, little was learned by the politicians.

Al

By kcd616

Date 06-17-2014 05:47

Al
I quit, your almost always correct :wink:

I wanted a debate, and discussion
but you stopped it with knowledge and info :lol:

Kent

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 06-17-2014 03:08

"I wonder if anyone will be charged with accessory to murder when the bridge crashes into the bay?"

If it did happen they would likely try but as we have seen so recently with the IRS the computers used in California to document any information would likely "crash" losing all of the data, "emails" specific to the bridge project, how convenient right?

By rjtinsp (*)

Date 06-17-2014 14:06

Lets kick California out of the Union!

By 803056

Date 06-17-2014 16:21

They are part of the Union? Since when? :cool:

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 06-17-2014 17:10

Yeah Al,

They joined the 'Career Politician' Union many years ago. :lol:

Good luck kicking them out of it.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By rjtinsp (*)

Date 06-17-2014 18:41

Uhhhh........1850

By JTMcC

Date 06-17-2014 22:16

California gets a bad, bad rap every day. It's mostly hard earned.

LA, Bay Area, OK, super goofy. I've worked in those + Bezerkly.

In California's defense, once you leave the major metro areas you are dealing with "regular Americans". They are for sure outnumbered, for sure way, way overly regulated, for sure downtrodden. But they are out there fighting the good fight against poor odds.

California is plumb flat out of $$$$$. They never thought it could happened. But it has and SOME sense of sense might just reappear there. We can only hope.

If any of that trickles down toward the LADBS, who knows, we'll see eventually.

But I hold out a tiny bit of hope for the forelorn california, even tho I certainly hate the dodgers : )

Go Arizona Diamondbacks, "Beat LA".

JT

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 06-17-2014 22:33

And it sure has some gorgeous country; Mt Shasta area, Lake Tahoe, Mammoth Mountain, Coastal area from just south of San Fran north through the Redwoods, Quincy, Susanville, Vacaville, and many more. And as JT said, especially in those areas, the people are great.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By Stringer (***)

Date 06-18-2014 02:47

We can only evolve through experimentation. We must not lament experimentation. Unless we're on that bridge falling into the bay.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 06-18-2014 19:16

I've got one acronym that pretty much sums it up for this gargantuan clusterphuck... :yell:

FUBAR!!! Plain and simple.

Respectfully (For the most part :grin:

),
Henry

By Smooth Operator (***)

Date 06-18-2014 20:45

Henry ....... Can't understand why a company like American Bridge who's' reputation is impeccable and know "worldwide" ,would not be consulted/ brought on board to straighten out this "disaster "!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek:

Politicians will continue to ruin this great country from the treatment of Vets. , healthcare , infrastructure projects and the list goes on...... Only thing they seem to be good at is giving themselves raises :yell:

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 06-18-2014 21:40

Hey Smooth,

I think it's because most of these "bottom feeders" don't know that about American Bridge or PDM who did the Gateway Arch, or any other company that originated from Pittsburgh!
they don't have a clue that Pittsburgh is the City of bridges even though my favorite bridges are in NYC... Good point though...

That's one of the many things I don't get... I mean if these so-called representatives of the people who are supposed to be "SERVING" meaning working for us the people, then why is it that they get to vote themselves a raise??? Everywhere else, their constituents (bosses-meaning us!) have to convince their employer for one! The only exception to that would be that a business owner can give themselves a raise but, in a corporation, the raise has to be approved by the board and shareholders... It doesn't make any sense to me. :mad:

Respectfully (For the most part :grin:

),
Henry

By Northweldor (***)

Date 06-18-2014 22:21

Don't understand! . In the above article, it clearly states that ADM is a joint partnership of American Bridge and Fluor, and were responsible for the hiring of the Chinese firm. American Bridge has been on the job since the start.

By kcd616

Date 06-18-2014 23:14

and we now see the problem :eek:

can everyone say fluor :eek:

sincerely,
Kent

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 06-21-2014 08:03

http://www.americanbridge.net/Experience/experience_detail.php?prj_ab_id=San%20San%2019042006101807301

By Northweldor (***)

Date 06-21-2014 18:59

So, American Bridge was really part of the problem, not any any kind of solution?

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 06-22-2014 00:41 Edited 06-22-2014 00:45

Hey, nobody's perfect... Although associating themselves with Fluor didn't help them any either which to me is totally out of character for American Bridge...

For quite a few years now, they have been outsourcing the fabrication and erection of their bridge projects so it doesn't surprise me that one day something like this would happen and unfortunately I was correct in forecasting this... :sad:

They must have had a new crop of managers involved that were originally from other outfits and somebody didn't keep a careful eye on these folks, and well you know the rest.

Btw, how's the overall large construction projects environment going on up there in Canada? No clusterphucks happening up there? Like I said, nobody's perfect...
Here's what I mean:

http://bridgemi.com/2012/09/new-ads-on-canada-bridge-carry-same-old-problem-truth-squad-rules/

http://blogs.windsorstar.com/2013/11/01/parkway-girders-in-question-will-be-replaced-say-builders/

http://renewcanada.net/2014/costly-delays-slow-union-station-revitalization-project/

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/06/18/quebecs_exdeputy_premier_testifies_at_corruption_inquiry.html

http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/11/26/federal-tax-money-funded-quebecs-corrupt-construction-projects-investigation-reveals/

So you see, it's going on all over the world these days. :eek:

Respectfully,
Henry

By Northweldor (***)

Date 06-22-2014 12:45 Edited 06-23-2014 12:04

I was not really interested in degrees of "perfection", but was very curious as to why Smooth Operator, with your support, felt that American Bridge was not a guilty party in the Bay bridge affair.

Also, I am quite aware of corruption in Canada, in an inspection system closely resembling the US model, as I stated earlier in the thread here:
http://www.aws.org/cgi-bin/mwf/topic_show.pl?tid=33578

The example I chose to illustrate my question in this thread is an especially egregious Canadian incident involving a Canadian company in which a weldor, who became a machinist, and later, an engineer, blew the whistle on corrupt practices, and was fired as a result. Here, out-sourcing was not involved, but the same desire to cut costs and maximize profits was. I think it closely parallels Caltrans / ABF behaviour.

(BTW, no one but Brent has attempted to answer the question I asked in that thread, and more responses would be interesting!).

*Edited to correct
Edited again to correct

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 06-23-2014 07:14

Northweldor,

I believe you're a sincere person who's a bit confused here... I say this because you mention that "Superflux" felt that American Bridge was not a guilty party in the Bay bridge affair." When it wasn't Superflux who said that at all... In fact the exact quote was this:

"By Smooth Operator (***) Date 06-18-2014 16:45
Henry ....... Can't understand why a company like American Bridge who's' reputation is impeccable and know "worldwide" ,would not be consulted/ brought on board to straighten out this "disaster "!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek:

"

With that, I believe you owe Superflux an apology... We do agree with each other more than you may want to think... Btw, how's that diamond mine going way up north?
i haven't read any sort of update regarding that project... What can I tell ya... Schyt happens and when it does, make darn sure not to step on it - unless you're desperate for some good luck which in reality rarely happens as a result. :surprised:

Respectfully (For the most part :roll:

),
Henry

By Northweldor (***)

Date 06-23-2014 12:12 Edited 06-23-2014 12:15

Superflux:

I sincerely apologize for my mistake in attributing the comments of another poster to you. I will ensure that such careless errors do not happen again, and I have corrected the post in which it occurred.

By Superflux (****)

Date 06-23-2014 20:58 Edited 06-23-2014 21:15

Northweldor,

Thank you!
that was very polite and gracious of you.
I've been guilty myself of such on a few occasions . Taint no thang. It does tend to get confusing on these computer things.
What I will reiterate is that I saw that (through serendipitous wisdom) that this gig was a FUBAR.
I had recently been employed by one of the Prime Players of that debacle and for reasons I'll never truly understand turned that gig down.
Oddly enough, I REALLY needed work/income at that point in time, but managed to pull off a really totally awesome gig that year that did not pay one red cent... but gave me great personal satisfaction....
It ain't always ALL about the money. We are craftsmen... regardless of the medium!
I spent that summer building this.
All 2X6 redwood and a couple of bundles of cedar shakes.
I sleep better at night knowing I had NO PART in that bridge.
My payment for that Summer was a table saw...

Attachment: Deck1.JPG (0B)

By unclematt (***)

Date 06-24-2014 13:35

Good Morning;
That is one good looking deck. Looks like it took a lot of thought and skill.

Have a good one;
Matt

By Northweldor (***)

Date 06-23-2014 12:44

Ekati is now producing 6 percent of the world's rough diamonds, and has surpassed South Africa in production (a 2 - liter milk-carton, full of rough diamonds, per day).

By JTMcC

Date 06-24-2014 19:23

Northwelder,

When they were setting up to dredge for diamonds (with Manitowoc 4100's and a clamshell) in the waters surrounding that area in the very early 2000's we repaired a LARGE number of damaged/punctured flexi-float barge sections for Kiewit on a majorly accelerated schedule due to the oncoming winter weather.
We had Canadian truck drivers lined up for over a mile just outside Las Vegas who were very nervous trying to get a load in time.
We worked a lot of 18-20 hr. days getting those trucks loaded with pressure tested ocean ready floatable units, 7 days/week.
In knee deep mud.

It was a goofy, but good job for us. Fun, fun, fun.

J

By Northweldor (***)

Date 06-24-2014 21:31

Interesting part of early history!

By JTMcC

Date 06-24-2014 23:45

Come on man! 2001 isn't yet prehistoric!

Maybe recent history.

Early history involves horses, sailing ships and flintlock rifles : )

J

and just to stay on topic, wooden bridges.

By Northweldor (***)

Date 06-25-2014 00:32

"Early history involves horses, sailing ships and flintlock rifles : )"
Not in the history of diamond mining in Canada. Try Nahanni construction pictures to see what they are doing now!

By Cumminsguy71 (*****)

Date 06-18-2014 23:20

Darn! I can give myself a raise???? All these years,

By JTMcC

Date 06-24-2014 19:03

Stringer your first sentence is true.
But experimentation belongs in a lab, not on a public bridge. Once actually proven, fine, incorporate it into the bridge.

Experimentation is a pre construction activity, that has to be proven thru testing before it can impact public safety.

This is an example of a chinese company handing out several million in favors, and failing to produce to the long standing accepted standards in place.

Then there's that pesky attempt to modify on the fly those standards by politicians and political appointee's.

It's already hit the high seismic bridge construction world as we see, Lord help us when it migrates into boilers, pressure piping and other life threatening aspects of every day life.

It's the wally world view, only instead of just a cheap skillet to cook your eggs in the morning it's a bridge that conveys millions of humans.

J

By js55

Date 06-23-2014 13:06

JT,
Actually I think EVERYONE KNEW it WOULD happen. We've known for the entire 200 years of this republic. California is simply a macrocosm of what is a happening on the municipal level (Detroit/Stockton etc.)and a microcosm of what is happening on the federal level.
Its just that with political corruption (allowed by us) and the self perpetuating government machine, nobody can stop it. Once the public realizes it can vote its own benefits, we are done like dinner.

By JTMcC

Date 06-23-2014 22:12 Edited 06-24-2014 17:02

No js55, not everybody knew it would happen. Only a few did.

The political class really thought that the "producers" (who are supporting close to 2/3rds of the nations non producers) would happily truck along outputting work at a standard pace, paying stupidly stupendous taxes to support the non producers. "They" really thought that the income stream from the producers had no end, the money would flow at high levels forever to supply those who choose to depend on others and sit at home and watch jerry springer while slurping down a 12 pack of natty lite.

But..... that's all long gone history now thanks to the bank "crisis" of '07.

Those pitifull (and stupid) few producers, are worn out and tired, no longer willing to produce at an average of 1:3.

So many, many have fled the California space and are happily working in other states. Those of us working in construction trades are sometimes linked to The California, but not happily.

There comes a place, where the producers (who've saved & stashed the fruit of their hard labors, drove the old truck, fixed the welding machine), decide to no longer produce to feed the machine.

When you are 23 hours into a day and you put your knee down on the sand and it's so hot it burns you thru your jeans, and you're opening your second 50lb can of 3/16" rod (or putting the 3rd roll of 232 wire in the box), and the ice has melted in your water can and your ice chest, your sammiches are long gone......you begin to wonder if it's all worth it to fork over 35%+ of your gross to "the govt" so they can feed those cats watching jerry springer and sleeping while you are burning rod/wire out in the wilderness with a passion at 5am.

And then, when you finally get a day off and venture to the local grocery store with your Lovely Bride, there sits 3 or 4 20 something, able bodied punk kids adorned with 5k worth of tattoo's and several face piercings in line in front of you gettin' free food stamp groceries paid for off your hard to the bone day/night get it labor.

Makes it harder to get all up and workin'.

The liberals never thought the gravy train would end. They thought the producers were stupid enough to just keep on keepin' on. No end to the income stream that they can hand out to sit at home non producers, but they have killed it.
J. Stalin thought the same but it all crumbled in the end. Look at Cuba. Look at E. Germany. Many more available examples for interested people

WooHoo, no more free money!

JTMcC

I should add that the 35% really becomes 50% -55% after all is said and done.

By js55

Date 06-24-2014 12:06

JT,
We may disagree as to the extent of foreknowledge but virtually everything else you said I agree with and have experienced myself. All of us have. To me the litmus of recoverability is in our response. We simply have to let these economies fail. Bailing them out only makes it worse later. Bankruptcy is the only solution. And when we accept bankruptcy we will then be demonstrating the resolve to fix it.

By JTMcC

Date 06-24-2014 18:45

Agreed.

Actions have consequences. Some days you just have to take your medicine, harsh tho it may be.

J