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- - By Mwccwi (***) Date 06-23-2014 10:45
We have been experiencing what we call summer porosity with our welding of aluminum extrusion. Our welding supply vendor is recommending adding oxygen to our Argon mixture instead of Helium (because Helium is in shortage). Has anyone heard of this, I have always been taught that the shielding gas is to protect from oxygen and nitrogen.
Parent - By 46.00 (****) Date 06-23-2014 11:14
Aluminium has a great affinity towards Oxygen, I doubt the addition of O2 would be beneficial! Without doing any research at all, I would call this as a major downer! I also think you would need to requalify......:lol:
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 06-23-2014 11:32
You haven't mentioned a standard... But if you are working to one... A change is 2 part gas or a change from 2 part to 1 part will most likely require requalification........

Nothing wrong with having your vendor bring that oxygen mix into your shop and doing scrap trials with your own equipment...  I would be willing to bet Al's next paycheck that a 2 part mix for shield gas on aluminum for GTAW or GMAW would not produce a result you liked.

Helium becomes more and more unstable in the marketplace....  Are you sure you can't get the work done with 100% argon shield gas?

It's really difficult to speculate as you have not even told us the process/s you are working with.
Parent - By OBEWAN (***) Date 06-23-2014 11:33
What process are you using?  Sometimes 2% oxygen is used with 98% Argon for the GMAW Spray Arc welding process; however, I agree with 46.00 that oxygen is best avoided when welding aluminum.

Most of my experience with aluminum welding is limited to the GTAW and LASER processes.

I have run GMAW Spray Arc at 450 Amps with 98-2% on carbon steel though!  I burned the back of my hand - and I was using a heavy glove with reflective foil like the firefighters use!
Parent - - By Mwccwi (***) Date 06-23-2014 11:52 Edited 06-23-2014 12:19
D1.2 is the Code/standard. GTAW - AC is the process. We understand that the procedues will require requalification if the internal expeiments prove effective pending customer approval.

Our customer spec. for porosity is some of the problem (= a.  Minimum Separation of Defects – The minimum separation between imperfections shall be 12” for maximum size defects and proportionately less for smaller defects.  The larger of the two defects shall be used for making this determination.  A maximum of 3 defects are accepted per frame at a minimum of 12” apart (unless otherwise specified). Pit Groups are considered 1 defect  2 @ 1/32” equaling 1/16” total area max, or 4 @ 1/64” equaling 1/16” total area max.)
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 06-23-2014 13:25
Mwc,
Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me you have initiated two discussions. One about 'summer' porosity which is almost always related to increased humidity and is especially associated with header gas. And the other is the recommended change in gas. It seems to me the change in gas may resolve your helium shortage problem, though I am skeptical of O2 with aluminum, but it would aggravate your porosity problem.
Parent - - By Mwccwi (***) Date 06-23-2014 13:35
js55,
Yes they are both the same. The intial problem is the summer porosity, my question is my vendors suggestion of adding oxygen to the gas mixture instead of helium.
Parent - - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 06-23-2014 13:59
Mwccwi have you tried Ultra High Purity argon if not maybe you should look into it. You can get a bad cylinder of argon sometimes thats why we went to UHP .

                    M.G.
Parent - - By Mwccwi (***) Date 06-23-2014 15:31
Milton,
Last year we went to UHP Argon and we qualified WPSs with 75% and 25% Helium.
Parent - - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 06-23-2014 16:30
Mwccwi is the 75%/25% pre-mixed or do you have two cylinders of UHP mixing it your self.

     M.G.
Parent - - By Mwccwi (***) Date 06-23-2014 19:51
Pre-mixed
Parent - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 06-23-2014 22:31
Mwccwi do you get certs on this Pre-Mix gases showing you the moisture content of the cylinder.

         M.G.
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 06-23-2014 14:01
Oxygen is not suitable as a shielding gas in any percentage when welding Aluminium. I find it strange that your vendor is even suggesting it!
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 06-23-2014 14:05
I can count on one hand with fingers left over the number of my vendors who's recommendations I trust.
Parent - By 46.00 (****) Date 06-23-2014 14:42
True!
Parent - - By electrode (***) Date 06-23-2014 17:47
Mwccwi,
"Has anyone heard of this..."
As long as it goes for GMAW - yes. There's however some considerable uncertainty noticeable in the results - strongly depending on the surrounding/welding conditions.
That is. While some results claim Ar + ≤ 5% O2 blends as capable of decreasing 'porosity', others do not. 'As usual', one is tempted to say.

Deploying GTAW, however, I would tend to agree with the other gentlemen.
That is, regardless of how O2 (in Ar) may (eventually) beneficially drop your level of 'porosity'; I suppose that finally you may end up at least with some significantly greater W-electrode consumption. Maybe your welding supply vendor is also your tungsten electrode supplier?
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 06-23-2014 18:46
Now you have me interested Electrode.

I have never heard of 02 being used for any type of aluminum work... And this morning I deployed a Henryesque internet search and found nothing.

Can you suggest a link or article that talks about O2 mix GMAW shield gasses for aluminum?

I would like to know more.

Thanks

lar
Parent - - By electrode (***) Date 06-23-2014 19:19
Lawrence,

thank you.

Here you go, as long as, in part at least, referring to the internet*:

- http://www.aws.org/wj/supplement/WJ_1995_02_s48.pdf
- http://www.omniweld.ca/PDF/Shielding%20gas%20mixtures%20VVaidya.pdf

Please take particularly note of the reference list in the 2nd paper.

*) "Henryesque internet search." - I do like that.
Sure 'ssbn727' can provide another "Henryesque" bunch of electronic publication.
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 06-23-2014 19:44
Interesting!
Parent - By electrode (***) Date 06-24-2014 05:04
Thank you, 46.00.
Parent - By electrode (***) Date 06-24-2014 09:16
Lawrence,

addendum, and just to emphasise my yesterday's statement that 'some' claim "yes" while others claim "no":

http://astp.jst.go.jp/modules/search/DocumentDetail/0451-5994_18_12_Effects%2Bof%2Bnitrogen%252C%2Boxygen%2Band%2Bhydrogen%2Bgases%2Badded%2Bto%2Bargon%2Bgas%2Bon%2BMIG-welding%2Bof%2Baluminum%2Balloys_N%252FA

Oh, before I forget.
Please ... do not forget the Oxygen.
Parent - - By kcd616 (***) Date 06-23-2014 18:12
Martin,
and to other friends here
simple answer
go with the helium
matter of fact go 100% helium on a/c current
got good welders, you will get good welds
and the cost of the helium will be out weighed by cost savings of good welds and no bad welds
just my thoughts
sincerely,
Kent
Parent - - By Mwccwi (***) Date 06-23-2014 19:53
our part thicknesses are from .026" to 2" all within a 2" length.
Parent - By kcd616 (***) Date 06-23-2014 21:16
Martin
does not matter imho
but listen to Al Moore
he brought up a great point I will go into next
sincerely
Kent
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-23-2014 12:25
I would put my money on a source of hydrogen as the root cause of your problem.

Are your welders wearing clean gloves when handling the raw material once it has been cleaned?

Are they using tools powered by compressed shop air? There is more moisture in warm summer air. Even with a water separator, some moisture can be passing through the air lines and contaminating the material with oil mist as well as water. Use air powered tools with rear exhaust ports with an extension to get the exhaust air away from the work area. A forward exhaust port is the kiss of death when working aluminum.

Wire brushes, filler rod, and any tools coming in contact with the aluminum should be cleaned frequently with 90% isopropyl alcohol. Handling the tools with one's bear hands is an invitation to contamination with oils from the skin.

Good luck - Al
Parent - - By 99205 (***) Date 06-23-2014 14:32
Al has the right track here.  I've learned through past experiences, sometimes costly, that it's best to look for the simple solution first.
Parent - - By Superflux (****) Date 06-23-2014 21:27
Hate to sound like a Neophyte...
WHAT the heck is "Summer Porosity"
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 06-24-2014 00:30
Often, depending on local condition for moisture, humidity, temperature, etc, when running air, compressed or gases, you get various amounts of moisture in your lines due to condensation, temperature changes, as pressurized air moves at high speed/volume through the lines.  Steel lines are worst...maybe.  Rubber air lines will do it as well. 

Examples: air arc in summer and notice the moisture coming out of the holder.  Air grinders and other high volume air tools, especially in summer and even with a filter.  Filter is at the start of the line, volume and temp and moisture already in the hose will contribute to moisture out the tool and onto your parts.  Happens with the flow of shielding gases as well especially if the welders are using too much flow.  Should probably be verified for the OP's question. 

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By kcd616 (***) Date 06-23-2014 21:31
Al
question
I never busted a test or had a weld rejected on gtaw
but you have a great point, always feed my rod with my bare left hand
like to feel how I can feed it, and I feed it better
but you could be correct here on oils and dirt off the skin
could we both be correct and both be wrong? I know your right in theory:confused:
sincerely
Kent
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-24-2014 01:00
Feeding with a gloved hand is without a doubt more difficult, but if you are going to eliminate porosity, you have to eliminate oils at their source. If you want to get an idea of the oils present in your skin, try looking at your thumbnail in the light. It will have a little gloss to it. Now rub your thumbnail beside your nose and look at the thumbnail now. It will be slick with oils from your skin.

Oils are essential to keeping your skin soft and pliable. Without it, your skin becomes cracked and sore. If in doubt, try rubbing your finger tip with Acetone. It will dry your skin and within the day your skin will become dry, sore, and cracked. Keep in mind, we instruct our student to wear latex gloves to protect their skin when performing penetrant testing because the solvents in the cleaner/remover and developer will dry the skin very effectively. Dry, cracked, and irritated skin will result if gloves are not worn.

Welding titanium presents many of the same problems as aluminum. Gloves must be worn if the highest quality welds are expected.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 06-24-2014 07:20 Edited 06-24-2014 07:22
Forget the Oxygen!!!

Al is spot on when it comes to cleanliness... If there's any sort of hydrocarbon - even the grease from your fingers or from the workspace area... For example, any sort of spraying or vapors from something else going on close by that could become airborne and mix it up with the humidity... And then eventually land on to the Aluminum as a thin layer of moisture mixed with whatever else is in the air can be a source... Remember that the thin layer of Aluminum oxide is porous as opposed to steel which is not!
Moisture can become entrapped within that porous layer of Aluminum oxide which can grow to become thicker resulting in porosity and inclusions of the oxides in the weld and moisture mixed with hydrocarbons = a witches brew when welding Aluminum... So clean, clean, clean - then wire brush with a stainless steel brush that's dedicated to be used only for Aluminum in order to clean off the oxide layer that will still be there even after cleaning... This must be done or else all of the cleaning you do alone will not substantially improve your weld quality and eliminate the greater than usual porosity problem you're currently experiencing...

This is from Alcotec: "Atmospheric Conditions Affect Weld Quality":

http://www.alcotec.com/us/en/education/knowledge/qa/Atmosperic-Conditions-Affect-Weld-Quality.cfm

"What shielding gas should I use when welding aluminum?"

http://www.alcotec.com/us/en/education/knowledge/qa/What-shielding-gas-should-I-use-when-welding-aluminum.cfm

"Storage and Preparation of Aluminum Base Alloys and Filler Alloys"

http://www.alcotec.com/us/en/education/knowledge/qa/Storage-and-Preparation-of-Aluminum-Base-Alloys-and-Filler-Alloys.cfm

Welding in drafty conditions due to open doors or fans directed at the area of welding... Strong drafts can remove the shielding gas during the welding operation...
Other sources of hydrogen and porosity are hydrocarbons such as lubricants, grease, oil, or paint and moisture that can contaminate the plate and or welding wire...
The quality and cleanliness of the aluminum welding wire can be a major factor. If the welding wire is of inferior quality it may be virtually impossible to produce acceptable porosity levels...

To achieve low porosity levels for x-ray quality welds, it is also important to understand the methods available for the effective removal of hydrocarbons and moisture from the weld area, and to incorporate the appropriate methods into the welding procedure... If these contaminants are present in the weld area during welding, they will produce hydrogen and greatly contribute to porosity problems... Moisture (H2O), which contains hydrogen, may be introduced to the welding area through a number of sources...

Water leaks within the welding equipment, if using a water-cooled welding system...
Inadequately pure shielding gas.... Shielding gas should meet the minimum purity requirements specified by the appropriate welding code or standard... Shielding gas may also become contaminated from imperfections within the gas delivery line such as leaking pipes or hoses...
   
Condensation on plate or wire from high humidity and change in temperature (crossing a dew point)... When welding in high humidity, it is relatively easy to acquire moisture from rather small fluctuation in temperature... Another source of moisture and porosity is hydrated aluminum oxide... Aluminum has a protective oxide layer that is relatively thin and naturally forms on any exposed surface... Correctly stored aluminum, with an uncontaminated thin oxide layer, can be easily welded with the inert-gas (GMAW and GTAW) processes, which breaks down and removes the oxides during welding... Potential problems with porosity arise when the aluminum oxide has been exposed to moisture... The aluminum oxide layer is porous and can absorb moisture, grow in thickness, and become a major problem when attempting to produce welds that are required to be relatively porosity free...

When designing welding procedures intended to produce low levels of porosity, it is important to incorporate degreasing and oxide removal... Typically, this is achieved through a combination of chemical cleaning and/or the use of solvents to remove hydrocarbons followed by stainless steel wire brushing to remove contaminated aluminum oxide...

Other potential contamination problems are associated with material preparation. Cutting or grinding methods, which may deposit contaminants on to the plate surface or sub-surface, cutting fluids, grinding disc debris, and saw blade lubricants are all areas of concern... These material preparation methods should be closely evaluated as controlled elements of the welding procedure and not changed without re-validation... Certain types of grinding discs, for example, can deposit particles within the aluminum that will react during welding and cause major porosity problems...

Correct cleaning of the aluminum parts prior to welding, use of proven procedures, well maintained equipment, high quality shielding gas, and a high quality aluminum welding wire that is free from contamination, all become very important variables if low porosity levels are desirable... Porosity is typically detected by radiographic testing of completed welds... However, there are other methods that can be used to evaluate porosity which do not use radiographic equipment... The nick-break test for groove welds, and the fracture break test for fillet welds can be extremely useful on test plates when evaluating a new cleaning method, during preliminary procedure development and for day to day weld quality verification...

Determining the actual cause of porosity within a specific welding operation is not always a straightforward exercise... Without an understanding of the basic principals relating to this problem, it can be an extremely time consuming and often a frustrating process...

We need to approach a porosity problem from an organized problem-solving standpoint, and work through the possibilities, based on our knowledge of the various sources of hydrogen, until we find and eliminate the cause... I hope this helps Martin.

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 06-24-2014 12:19
If we are convinced that it is hydrocarbons we are still left with explaining the seasonal nature of hydrocarbon contamination related to the OP's statement.
Parent - - By Mwccwi (***) Date 06-24-2014 13:06
In this article they call it July porosity.
http://www.fabricatingandmetalworking.com/2011/12/aluminum-welding-the-cost-and-cure-of-porosity/

I don't care what it is called it becomes a problem for us here near the great lakes every summer.
Parent - By fschweighardt (***) Date 06-24-2014 13:41
Fine chance it is H2 porosity.  Gotta dry that stuff out.  If you are still struggling, might consider one of the PPM level N2 in Ar mixes, for TIG I think we use 150 to 300 PPM
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 06-24-2014 13:43
Frank Armano is one of the best.

People working with Aluminum should Google him and copy each of his many many articles.

Use them for worker/supervisor training and post them for everybody to see.
Parent - By 522029 (***) Date 06-24-2014 19:49
Lawrence,

Mr. Armano had an article in "Practical Welding"  a few months ago in which he stated  "porosity in aluminum is caused only by trapped hydrogen." Now, there may be several sources for the trapped hydrogen.

You are correct in saying that Mr. Armano is one of the best.

Griff
Parent - - By Milton Gravitt (***) Date 06-24-2014 14:06
Mwccwi how do you prep the aluminum before you start welding in the article they talk about cleaning and prep do you ech the aluminum before welding. I don't think 02 will make things any better it will make things worst I think.

   M.G.
Parent - - By Mwccwi (***) Date 06-24-2014 15:02
We do not etch the extrusions, we do scrub tank them (chemical changed weekly), the bevel s are made with air tool (die grinder), post grind chemically wipe, and at the welder’s fixture we stainless steel brush the joint prior to welding. (Dedicated brushes changed out bi-weekly)
We follow every recommendation in Tony Anderson’s Welding Aluminum- Question and Answers book.
The porosity is typically found at the termination points of the groove welds mostly on the inside corner connections.
Attachment: NewPicture.png (92k)
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 06-25-2014 06:23
You said an air tool for grinding correct? Has that been checked lately to make sure that none of the oil/lubricant is leaking, or spraying a very fine mist of what is essentially a thin layer of a hydrocarbon? Is your air filtered for the humidity? have you checked it @ the receiving end to verify that no moisture is in that air supply?

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By Mwccwi (***) Date 06-25-2014 10:12
Thanks Henry,

We do have line dryers but I don't trust them. I have the parts wiped after beveling with chemical solvent and then again just prior to welding with isopropyl.We are experimentinting with dehumidifer/air-conditioners for the Aluminum TIG and prep-work cells.
This issue is blowing my mind because except for the summer months our aluminum GTAW welds are pristine.
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 06-25-2014 11:54
I think you are on the right track. Unfortunately I do not think there are any ultimate solutions. Every year we see the same thing. Have seen it in every shop I have worked. That and the reject rates going up with new hires are as inevitable as death and taxes.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-25-2014 14:22
Is the air exhausted to the rear on your air tools? If not, the forward exhausting tools blow the "contaminated" air, typically lubricated with oil, onto the surfaces you just cleaned. Even when an air dryer is employer upstream in the system, the air tool typically lubricated occasionally to keep the turbine vanes operating freely.

Workers often use wax to prevent the rotary files from loading up with aluminum. Waxes are hydrocarbons. Likewise, a lubricant used while punching, drilling, or sawing is an additional source of hydrocarbon.

Another source of hydrogen is condensation in the area of the gas nozzles. If the solenoids controlling the follow of coolant through the torch aren’t completely stopping the flow of coolant when the torch is not in operation, the temperature in the nozzle can drop below the dew point. When the temperature drops below the dew point, which can be relatively high during summer months, the moisture can condense on the metal surfaces. The moisture then flash as steam when the arc is initiated. This problem is relatively easy to recognize. If the porosity is limited to the starts of welds right after the guns or torches have been sitting for a while or if the porosity is most noticeable at the beginning of a shift, right after a break, or after a long lunch break. A solenoid for the shielding gas is sticking, the same problem can occur due to the cooling effects of the shielding gas. As the gas passes through the gas diffuser in the torch or the gun, the decompression causes a cooling affect. Again, condensation can result on days where the dew point and relative moisture content of the air is high. I had this problem in Boston one summer. It turned out to be a combination of the gas and coolant solenoids sticking in the open position. The problem was “cured” when the bad solenoids were replaced.

Best regards – Al
Parent - - By Mwccwi (***) Date 06-25-2014 15:01
Rear exhasted with a hose boot 2' long away from the parts.  We check the equipment regularly and it is part of our process to retest the equipment as part of our reation to welding defects that get past the welders.
The same lubs are used through-out the year. Waxes are only allowed at post weld finishing (all welds are ground flush and this is where the fine minute porosity is discovered)
Attachment: porproof.JPG (0B)
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-25-2014 15:06
You are on the right track. Did you check the situation with the solenoids?

Al
Parent - - By Mwccwi (***) Date 06-25-2014 15:11
Brand new machines bought last summer and yes we check everything even the points on the older equipment.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-25-2014 15:34
What about the other factors I listed?

feeding filler metal with bare hands,
handling the cleaned material with clean dry gloves,
storing the aluminum so that it is not exposed to moisture, i.e., condensation over night,
tools kept clean and cleaned with a suitable solvent before each use,
filler metals protected from dust and mists in the shop environment,

This is your opportunity to play the part of Inspector Cluso. (OK, so the name is spelled wrong. I'm not French and if I was, I still couldn't spell!)

Good luck - Al
Parent - By Mwccwi (***) Date 06-25-2014 16:22
As of yesterday new gloves at first sign of contamination, and I did catch a welder wipe his filler rod and then hold it with his lips, we are trying to stop this but it is such a habit for the guy that he does it without thinking.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 06-25-2014 15:29
Mwc,
Is your compressed air header supplied?
And is it threaded pipe?
Have you checked for leaks?
Parent - - By Mwccwi (***) Date 06-25-2014 15:38
js55,
yes
yes
yes
and  our welders have what they call wind flags -filler rod that is bent on a Pivot with toilet paper on the end todetect air movements.
Parent - - By 46.00 (****) Date 06-25-2014 16:06
Martin, do you monitor Humidity and temperature levels in your welding area? What about atmospheric particulate levels?
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / 02 with aluminum
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