Integrated orbital system question

Date 07-15-2014 18:32

As is the case with anything, it depends on the application.

Magnatech is about 18 miles from my home. I've seen their system, as well as a few other, in action. The systems are impressive, but the fit-up has to be superb. By that, I mean the ends of the pipe/tube must be machined to be true and counterbored to optimize the fit-up.

A programmable power source is well suited to welding in position, i.e., horizontal fixed and inclined. If the part is rotated while welding, the need for programing is not as critical.

Best regards - Al

By OBEWAN

Date 07-15-2014 19:39

My suspicion is that the need for computer control (or not) of weld power and torch motion may depend on the specific application(s).

Like Al said, programmable power supplies have some advantages for welding out of position - aka when the electrode orbits the tube.

I have seen many excellent welds made using programmable GTAW power supplies, with the power ramped down as the weld progresses around the tube.

I have also seen some good welds made in lathes with the parts rotated, and more conventional power supplies used with upright fixed position weld torches.

I do not yet have much experience making orbital welds without ramping power.

Do you have a weld procedure yet? My suggestion is to see if any vendors can supply sample welds if you need to make orbital welds without power ramping capability. But, there is also a chance that the practical school may win out - assuming your weld specification and build to print dimensions allow wide enough tolerances to accommodate the asymmetry in the weld profiles that might result. Oh, and the other advantage for using weld power ramping is that it can compensate for heat buildup as the weld progresses.

By Kix

Date 07-16-2014 16:00

I thought that the programmer the integrated power source plugs into can control the orbit and the ramping. I saw that one of the boxes looks to have a digital screen on it where programs may be able to be implemented. Something to look into I guess. We will definitely need ramping ability and orbit control if we are tasked with going the orbital route. The application is for 1/2" Ti tubing.

By OBEWAN

Date 07-16-2014 18:59 Edited 07-16-2014 19:02

I'm sorry if I caused any confusion with my first response.

If my memory serves me correctly, I am not aware of any Magnetec orbital welding controls that will interface to a "conventional" GTAW/TIG power supply. Typically, most orbital welding systems are "package deals" which include a power supply, orbital weld head, programming device, and some interface cables - all supplied by the same vendor.

I do recall one system made by an automation systems integrator that uses a "Brand A" welding head and a "Brand B" GTAW (inverter digital) power supply - but, this system was custom built, custom programmed, and priced a little closer to the high end that some shops are willing to consider paying.

I am not yet aware of any industry standard that exists for interfacing a "Brand A" orbital controller/weld head to A "Brand B" GTAW/TIG power supply - and I am not suggesting that any standard needs to be developed. It might be nice to have - but at what expense?

You might say, then "what about a robotic welding system?. If I am not mistaken, most robotic systems let the power supply control the weld process, and the robot and/or PLC control system(s) just send(s) ready to weld and weld complete signals back and forth to the power supply. But, most of this is still somewhat vague to my feeble mind in my old age since I am not an electrical engineer or Journeyman Electrician.

Some of the older orbital welding systems might not include pulsing or ramping capability - and, I presume that they would include equipment made by the same supplier. Someone with orbital experience from the "old days" might be in a better position to advise you than myself.

Also, I was not attempting to steer you in the direction of using pulsing or ramping your welding power. However, in today's world, with modern technology, most folks in the orbital welding business are strong advocates of using power pulsing and ramping - and if the theory advances far enough, the systems might advance to provide even better capability to offset welding distortion by selectively applying controlled heat inputs at selected locations.

I hope I have not confused anyone any further. Without knowing more about your specific application and its technical requirements I am afraid this is all the advice I can muster.

Good luck, and think positive. Orbital welding is a great process - one of my favorites in fact.

If you are launching a "routine" welding application, then the simplest approach might be the best "first cut" option. Work with the vendor - they can best advise you on how to proceed. And, always be aware that you get what you pay for. If you want a more sophisticated system, then there are control systems integrators that can build you what you want.

Why do you want to interface to a conventional power supply? Is this to develop a customized welding process, or to reduce your capital outlay by utilizing existing equipment?

By Metarinka (****)

Date 08-05-2014 18:45

I would actually say this is quite common. Any of the big integrators such as Wolf, Jetline or AMET will sell you a weld controller that will interface with either Red, blue or yellow depending on which vendor they work with. The modern Inverter power supplies have some type of communication standard or pinout that allows for external remote control. I've personally used JetLine and AMET orbital or rotary weld controllers that interfaced back through miller or lincoln welders, for the Jetline controller we actually upgraded from an old transformer to modern inverter power supply and it was able to handle the change.

By OBEWAN

Date 08-05-2014 19:47

Sorry folks, my bad. By "conventional" power supply I thought he meant other than "modern" inverter technology.

I did not begin to catch up to this inverter stuff until a few years ago, and I still have a bit more to learn. The one high end system that I did see was custom built by an automation systems vendor, and it ran the welding control in Windows XP with an interface to Microsoft Excel spreadsheets. It could be programmed on or offline in fact.

The welding lathe and control are interfaced to a "blue" power supply that is based upon inverter technology.

I have never tried orbital welding without pulsing, but I will not dispute what others have told me since I was very happy with most of the results for the thin tubing that we welded.

Thanks for setting me straight!

By Metarinka (****)

Date 08-05-2014 18:42

I have never heard of an orbital weld controller that didn't have ramping/modified welding variables for fixed position pipe. I've never heard of a successful automated orbital welder that was done with fixed parameters (but I could be wrong).

I've done a decent amount of orbital welding work and it can work quite well as long as incoming fittup is good. I unfortunately don't have any experience with small diameter piping, as mentioned shielding is going to be the biggest concern.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 08-06-2014 00:20

No such animal commercially sold for sure...You're not wrong at all Joel...

I have welded with orbital welders on both thick and thin pipe and you hit the nail on the head because preparation for fit up is paramount and there's less of a tolerance with thin wall tubing.... The other important factor especially with stainless steels is the chemical composition of the metal itself... to much Sulfur and/or Phosphorous in the metal and even in the filler metal... If Fusing autogenous welds, these elements will also be detrimental in many ways in producing less than optimal welds and may lead to cracking...

Gas purity is crucial as well especially with certain alloys that have reactive elements involved, and must be monitored on a continuous basis for oxygen content that must be below a specific amount in ppm's (parts per million)...

And then there's probably one of the most important factors that must be taken into account is the cleanliness of the metal just prior to starting the weld itself...
There should be no type of residue of any type left on the metal surface, and clean gloves must also be used when handling the material...

It's tedious and time consuming but, without doing so will make the difference between an excellent outcome and a clusterphuk!

Yeah I never seen one of those either dude!

Respectfully,
Henry

By Metarinka (****)

Date 08-07-2014 21:02

you're bringing back memories of my time in aerospace and nuclear work. Often times we would weld in vacuum chambers (EB) or vacuum evacuated and back filled argon or helium chambers just to meet PPM requirements for nitrogen, O2 and H2O. Interesting subfactoid, oxygen sensors are not really sensitive enough below 100 PPM and prone to fouling if exposed to ambient atmosphere. We had to switch to nitrogen sensors or mass spectrometers to get an accurate read on <10 ppm levels of contaminants. Furthermore most metallographic techniques can't accurate measure oxygen or nitrogen below 50 ppm so you have to go through some type of destructive testing method to determine if your contamination is in the proper range. I spent over a year working on that problem...

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 08-07-2014 21:49

Well, the working I was referring to was being performed before you were even born so the accuracy issue wasn't even as crucial as it is nowadays and to use a mass spectrometer back then would have been out of the question because of the difficulty in in using one of them down in the shop floor and their excuse was that it was too expensive to leave in that environment... Somebody might try to break it for cryin out loud! What a bunch of wussses some of them were!

However, I do agree with your subfactoid if you're referring to years ago but, there are currently available trace Oxygen sensors out there that can do much lower then 100 or even 50 ppm's... For example, take a look @ this one:

http://aoi-corp.com/sites/default/files/documents/3000%203-17-14.pdf

There's more to post but you'll have to excuse me because I'm not in the habit of burning my dinner so I'll add more afterwards... Once a Gourmet chef, always one for life!

Respectfully,
Henry

By Metarinka (****)

Date 08-11-2014 18:33

problem with those oxygen meters is that they often have a very long sampling time, the one you link claimed 10 seconds for full scale response. In our experience <100 ppm it was more like 1-2 minutes, believe me we tried just about every sensor out there before settling on a residual gas analyzer which we had already been using in a production environment. Getting measurements below 30 ish ppm becomes a science experiment and lesson in chasing: leaks, moisture, background noise, and sample flow rate calibrations.

Maybe I'm bitter but for those very accurate readings I would never use an O2 sensor again, they just weren't robust enough for a welding environment, the RGA's seemed to hold up much better and don't foul up.

By OBEWAN

Date 08-11-2014 19:52 Edited 08-11-2014 20:02

Thank you for your insight into these issues. I will try to make a mental note regarding these limitations in case I need to think on this in the future.

I have seen welding specifications that stipulated the use of oxygen sensors for titanium welding projects, and now you have me wondering...

My exposure to the fine details regarding this technology was somewhat limited in the past...only being aware that the vacuum chamber diffusion pumps were capable of measuring the oxygen levels to a certain minute level...that was not measured in PPM on the digital readouts.

We did send some welding samples out for SEM chemical analysis that was done by a Phd. level metallurgical engineer.

These issues are not a large concern for me at the present time, but they do bring back a few memories.

Most people involved in sensitive welding applications concern themselves more with the prevention and/or elimination of moisture in shielding gasses, and sometimes include the use of monitoring and/or gas drying technology.

I am afraid we are moving away from the main topic of this thread, so I think I am done for now...

By Metarinka (****)

Date 08-11-2014 23:43

Don't let me scare you away from O2 sensors. They are very useable for spot checks of atmosphere quality on things like Titanium which tend to have more tolerance to oxygen or nitrogen than the alloys I was working with. We required 100% monitoring of the atmosphere during welding, not just a 1 time spot check, we also cared about multiple gasses (and dryness) so an RGA was a good choice.

Before you get too keen on RGA's they are about 30-70K vs 2-10K for a top of the line O2 sensor.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 08-17-2014 09:18

Hi Kix,

1/2" Ti tubing eh? what's the wall thickness of the tubing? What grade are you talking about?

Here's an example application describing the fuse (Autogenous) welding of small diameter Ti tubing for a Chinese-Brazil Earth Resources (CBERS) Satellite Propulsion System:

http://www.arcmachines.com/industries-served/aerospace/orbital-welding-cbers-propulsion-system

And here's another less critical yet hi purity orbital autogenous welding application by Cessna Aircraft that was also designed and configured by AMI (Arc Machines Incorporated)
And featured in the June 2002 edition of the Welding Journal of the AWS:

http://www.arcmachines.com/industries-served/aerospace/orbital-welds-take-flight

I'm sure there are similar weld heads and weld controller/power sources that can do the job also... Keep in mind that the above mentioned manufacturer only offers integrated complete system packages that don't allow one to replace their power source with a blue or red or any other digital controller and separate welding power source yet if done correctly, with some possible modifications one can rig something up together that may work r not... I wouldn't want to take that chance especially if doing so results in significant amount of time, labor, parts wasted and the uncertainty of whether or not the adhoc adaptation will work or not! You might as well go for an integrated system where the same customer service and technical experts are available and the system is proven to work for your application before you even accept the system for purchase or rental/leasing... It's a no brainer IMHO... The EZ Orbital system can do the job as long as the required weld heads are compatible with the controller for your application...

From what I have seen so far, the system you're talking about is a relatively new option in enabling the end user preferences by now being able to choose the components necessary to go beyond the limitations of the manufacturers supplied integrated power sources output ranges that previously existed with standard integrated orbital welding systems... Of course there have been customized packages as long as they consisted of the same manufacturers components (power sources)of the entire integrated orbital welding systems... In other words, the weld controller that controlled the welding heads and the power sources were previously combined together as one component of the system... this option of "marrying" orbital welding heads and their controllers to interface with welding power sources manufactured by different companies is a new twist that is available because of the advances in processing power and the fact that these components can digitally "talk" to each other enables an orbital systems manufacturer to integrate their controller Input and output signals with any brand of digitally based inverter type power source that's available in the market with fewer restrictions regarding interfacing and communicating with each other...

Does anyone recognize the power source's actual brand name from the design that is shown in the .pdf link below?
Hint: It's a German made power source... :surprised:

Take a good look for yourselves by comparing the 2 links below:

http://www.magnatechllc.com/power-MPS-4000.php

http://www.fronius.com/cps/rde/xchg/SID-1B01711D-45F8AE55/fronius_international/hs.xsl/79_4644_ENG_HTML.htm

Uncanny similarity don't you think? :eek:

So far I have checked to see if AMI offers similar options of being able to use different digital inverter type power sources with their own equipment, and they don't offer anything like what Magnatech does... Let's see if anyone else has thought of offering a similar product like the EZ Orbital system...

Astro-Arc Polysoude has a controller to use with any standard, or synergic MIG-MAG/GMAW/FCAW power sources, with a remote control enabling the welding operator to adjust the welding parameters in real-time while keeping a watchful eye on the weld puddle... So this one is limited to GMAW/FCAW and not applicable for your project according to Astro Arc supposedly... :roll:

http://us.polysoude.com/mig-mag-schweissen

Liburdi Diametrics does have available an "LCX Universal weld controller" that enables the end user to "marry" with their own Liburdi welding power sources and other welding power sources such as: Miller, Fronius and Lincoln... I'm not 100% positive but, unless there's some proprietary electronic configuration designed and implemented in these power sources, there shouldn't be any other reason for not being able to "marry" this controller with any other inverter type welding power source out in the market that has compatible architecture and capabilities of the three listed by Liburdi in their brochure/data sheet .pdf... However, for your application, you're limited in the variety of welding heads available to use that come down to i/2" diameter Ti tubing so you may want to look further with other manufacturers...

An "FFIP" weld head is compatible with the aforementioned weld controller like this one but it's designed for pipe and does use filler wire so it's not designed to autogenously weld the thin walled tubing you require for your application because of the open type weld head configuration... Closed weld heads are specifically designed for autogenous welding... All of the compatible weld heads for the LCX Universal weld controller are primarily for larger diameter tubing and piping... take a look below to see for yourself:

http://www.liburdi.com/LiburdiDimetrics/LCX-Controller/default.aspx

http://www.liburdi.com/LiburdiDimetrics/LCX-Controller/White%20Papers/LCX_datasheet.pdf

http://www.liburdi.com/LiburdiDimetrics/FFIP-head/White%20Papers/FFIP_datasheet.pdf

So that's one that's somewhat similar... Are there any more available? Well - let's find out later today when I continue posting in this thread!

Respectfully,
Henry

By spgtti

Date 08-01-2014 21:58

I've used a Tubemaster and Magnatechs heads several times in the field. They don't do near as well as the main players in the industry(% parameter adjustments suck) and the heads are massive to accomodate one size fits all tube welding. If cost is a concern you might want to consider buying a used AMI, Swagelok, Dimetrics or Otto Arc with an integrated power supply. There are several companies outside of the manufacturers who specialize in sales and support of new and used equipment for less than manufacturers prices. They can help you with finding equipment that fits your needs.
The brochure shows the equipment clamped on low grade sanitary SS tube (food processing), I would shy away from any equipment that doesn't offer at least a programming display.

By Metarinka (****)

Date 08-05-2014 18:48

I can't speak to this particular brand, but just about every orbital welder I've used has been a custom controller/hardware hooked up to a traditional miller or Lincoln power supply, most of the small welding equipment firms like Jetline or AMET don't build power supplies. Lincoln and miller both sell inverter based welders that have complete I/o and are willing to work with vendors to integrate their power supplies.

I unfortunately don't know anything about magnatech, but I have no fears using a custom conntroller with an off the shelf power supply.