question for Brent or others to chime in

Date 08-04-2014 22:11

"I keep my electrodes in a box in the trunk of my car. It gets plenty hot in the sun!" Quoted from a welder when I asked him where was his electrode holding oven.

Al

By lo-hi

Date 08-04-2014 23:54

I like it when I show up on a job and ask for a dedicated outlet to plug my oven into and am asked what is that for. Most jobs don't have real inspectors but it runs so much nicer and why not.

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 08-04-2014 22:36

I have never seen any mention of external temp or humidity in a code specification or in manufacturers recommendations for stick electrodes.

If you are asking if it's ok to ignore codes or manufacturers recommendations because it's hot and dry outside; no.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 08-04-2014 22:57

Good one Al!! :lol:

Kent,

Seriously, we hear all kinds of things from welders. Including similar statements as Al posted.

The question is, what do we as inspectors allow? Personally, the code is the code. It, and the manufacturer's specifications, give us the criteria with times for atmospheric exposure. Most fabricators use electrodes with exposure ratings for 'all day', 9 hours. Open the 10 lb tins with a pop top which are truly hermetically sealed in the morning and stick it in the rod oven at night or throw it away.

Now, you probably know, but for the benefit of those who don't, there are provisions in the code for calculating moisture absorption and exposure times differently, 5.3.2.3 and Annex F. But why bother?

Granted, and Al could probably do a very good job with this, I could go to great expository depths and verbal tirades explaining the heat (100-115°F Officially ) with humidity in the single digits (3-9% very common) this time of year and how that means it is not drawing in moisture as it does along coastal regions with temps in the 90's and humidity in the 80-90's. Plus, left out in the sun temps according to my calibrated IR gun will hit and top 150°F. But, that is not the intent of the code to allow for individual 'I think' scenarios.

You truly need those 250°F + temps to keep the moisture out of the flux. Plus, this time of year, even here in AZ, you must watch so many other factors because when storms blow through that humidity will jump to 75% real quick. And this is our wet time of the year. Plus, many forget to factor in the ... the term just left me... AAHH - dew point and that when they leave that electrode out with certain atmospheric conditions and temperature changes over night it still draws in moisture that wasn't there during daylight hours.

So, bottom line, "how tight" am I ? Just as tight as normal. There is no exception for any contractor, time of year, temperature/humidity, or other condition. Get your alternate method via the code and get it approved and I will accept it. Otherwise, get a rod oven you cheap skate (not you Kent, just my opinion of those seeking to excuse poor habits and cheapness with weather conditions).

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By 46.00

Date 08-05-2014 06:32

I tend to stick to the regulations, just because it may be 100°F outside doesn't mean I am gonna let you off storage! It may be down to 55°F in a couple of hours! I am looking for an controlled environment!

By Fit4aking (*)

Date 08-05-2014 12:20

Thanks Brent.

I have very limited Stick time and the few times I have burned rod it was just what I could find around the shop. Perhaps it was the moisture content, lack of preheat, etc that made it very difficult to prevent cracking or maintain a decent puddle. (Or being a rookie, but I'll stick with blaming the crap rod for now.) My incorrect assumption about stick welding is that the rod can just sit in your pouch all day while you climb around difficult locations getting down and dirty with a relatively simple set of tools. (Stinger + Stick) After reading these posts I will surely be paying close attention to rod storage and environmental factors when I get down to learning more about Stick welding.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 08-05-2014 16:19

Do a 'search' function for rod ovens, electrode storage, and other combinations here and you will find many comments about what the code says about rod storage.

The D1.1- 2010 Clause 5 I think 5.3, and then the Commentary are pretty clear about what is needed and part of the why it is needed.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By jarsanb (***)

Date 08-05-2014 17:17

For those without a code book readily available, here are some links to practical issues:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wjz8eh3uxkU
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/support/welding-how-to/pages/storing-electrodes-detail.aspx

By Northweldor (***)

Date 08-06-2014 13:18

That video from BMT that jarsanb recommended is the best illustration for non- believers, in that you can actually see, the benefits of proper storage and post-heat!

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 08-05-2014 23:48

Not to sidetrack/hijack Kent's thread, but, what electrode were you using? 6010, 6011, 7018, 6013, 7014, etc?

The course of current discussion, and I hope what you are commenting on, involves low hydrogen electrodes which include three: 7015, 7016, and 7018. Of these 7018 is the most commonly known and used.

These electrodes reduce problems such as you mention with cracking. But, they must be stored correctly.

AWS D1.1, Clause 5.3.2 (5.3.2.1, 5.3.2.2, 5.3.2.3, & 5.3.2.4) deal with the structural steel code requirements for these electrodes as do the manufacturer's specifications.

Bottom line, when you go into most Local Welding Supply facilities they will have boxes of electrodes, including the 7018, open and just grab a hand full of the one you want and go. No rod oven or other storage to maintain the moisture content requirements to make sure you are not creating your own problem with the weld instead of eliminating the problems that contribute to cracking. Home Depot, Lowe's, and many other hardware stores also have improperly packaged electrodes. Then come small shops, farms, and hobby welders. Most don't know that there is a proper way to store low hydrogen electrodes.

The best way to buy low hydrogen electrodes is in the tins that are truly 'sealed'. Some of those with 10 pounder size cans have a pop top. Some of the 50 pounders now have that feature as well. We used to have to 'cut' one end off the can by one of several different methods and if a newbie did it they often ruined many of the electrodes by opening the wrong end and/or using a questionable procedure.

Those hermetically sealed cans can have the electrodes put into instant use and have a 9 hour exposure if they are the proper designator classification. If they come in cardboard boxes, even with foil packets, they have usually damaged any seal that may have existed and are way past the atmospheric exposure time.

So, if buying the wrong type of packaged electrode or electrodes in already opened containers you must bake them at 500-800°F for 2 hours; 1/2 an hour partial warm up, 2 hr full heat, full heat time starts AFTER the bake oven has reached the full bake temperature, time of increasing heat not counted. This process can take 3-4 hours.

Electrodes in proper containers should be placed immediately into the oven upon opening except for a handful to be put into use right away. This way you don't need to worry about over exposure and throwing away electrodes.

There is often a difference between a 'holding oven' and a 'bake oven'. Most holding ovens have limited, if any, temperature control and will not go to high enough temperatures to bake (500-800°F). Minimum is 250°F and they may go up to around 400°F. If adjustable I like them set at about 300°F because it is hard to actually get the electrodes to 250° if that is the exact temperature setting of the oven. Baking can only be done 'ONCE' according to D1.1, Clause 5.3.2.1. So if you must do it the minute you get the electrode from your supplier then if you allow them to get over exposed they are history. Many companies will also have a policy of limiting the number of times they can be exposed and put back in the storage oven but the code does not mandate this.

The temp in the ovens and proper venting drive the moisture out of the flux on the electrodes and give them the properties that make them function as engineered. But stored wrong leads to problems.

Hope this information is of help. I tried to keep it short and as on topic here to Kent's question as possible.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By CWI7611 (**)

Date 08-16-2014 21:36

I know most of us have "been there, done that" but in the mid '80's I was in a shop in Dallas that had a most modern refrigerator with a 25 watt light bulb in it for holding LH electrodes. Fortunately this was a pre-award/vendor qualification visit and they did obtain a real rod oven with a thermometer in it visible from the outside. Not being untrustworthy, I got my own thermometer and put it inside for verification. The shop "QA Manager" told me they had just had a National Board audit and were not written up for the "holding oven they were using". The AI in the shop also said the refrigerator was "OK". Great, they still got an oven. I spent two months in the shop and did see the welders working on our job did get electrode from the real oven. Can't tell you what they did when I wasn't looking.

A few years later I was up in the four corners area of NM, possibly a town that began with Farming***, and asked to see the electrode oven and was led to a commercial type meat storage refrigerator and all rods were stored in this locker. A humidistat on the wall did read about 5%. I questioned this and again was told that the National Board and the AI were both OK with it. I reported this to my engineer and told him since the shell of the vessel was all that was fabricated with LH electrode, though I had a problem with the storage, if he had no objection I would not reject that part of the fabrication. The coil we had in the vessel, it was an indirect gas heater, was all welded using GTAW because of the close quarters on the U tube bends.

I still didn't like it but my engineer approved it so I had little but the Code to stand on. Oh yeah, the coil was the only thing that had to be stamped. Tell me, was I wrong, was my engineer wrong. At least I had my say at the shop. If their LH, they should be in an oven not a meat locker.

I left the shop with an understanding with the QA Manager that if we had an ASME vessel fabricated in his shop and I returned and didn't see rod ovens being used, the vessel would not be accepted. We never had a vessel fabricated in that shop. Just my luck.

I believe there are still some shops today that work this way. Please tell me that none of them do.

By IowaCWI (*)

Date 08-16-2014 23:05

Sorry for the bad news but, I recently ran into the refrigerator as an oven trick. But in their defense, they did have a real oven, with a broken latch and no thermometer in it! I didn't have much to say on it as I was not visiting them as an inspector. I also noticed an employee using LH out of a cardboard box. I asked him how long it has been out of the oven and he told me, only a couple of weeks. Good news is, within the next several months this facility will be expanding into hazardous material service. I'm trying not to give too much detail but my point is, there are still some areas of great concern out there.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 08-16-2014 23:54

Show me where the 'code' says that the electrode holding oven must be a commercially available purchase through a Major Welding Supply Distributor?? All it says is that they must be in a unit that will hold them at a specified temperature. :evil:

(devil's advocate being played)

Now, As one of our major contributors here has on occasion pointed out, the heat will drive out the already absorbed moisture, H20, which needs to be allowed to vent so there needs to be a vent in the holding oven that will allow air circulation and keep the moisture from just contaminating all electrodes placed in the oven because you have a sauna.

A light bulb is okay as a heating source provided it does get the temps up to where they are required to be. I prefer heating elements with adjustable rheostats but whatever works.

I would rather see a home made oven than none at all. At my shop we used a 50 yr old refer with shelving to hold a lot of rod. We kept it up where it needed to be and had vent holes in it. But, none of the electrodes from it were used for code jobs. I used everything from 10 lb cans. The unopened cans were stored in the refer to insure dryness and the opened cans were placed there and kept for equipment repairs and other noncode work. New cans were opened each day to weld on code jobs.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By CWI7611 (**)

Date 08-17-2014 00:38

I guess they vented the refer every time they opened it. I think it said Frigidaire on the door but I didn't see a thermometer anywhere. I didn't see a vent but then I didn't think I needed to look, know what I mean. I know we've all used less than commercially available rod ovens, I have a large ammo box with a light bulb in it myself works great till the bulb burns out. Now since they have quit producing the smaller watt incandescent bulbs I may have to up grade. maybe I can find one for sale at a UA member's yard sale.

It just seemed strange that the Authorized Agency would audit a facility and not have some concern.

We've all gotta have a little fun here sometime. Notice I didn't say "I LOVED to find something like this". You have taught me well Master.

By Metarinka (****)

Date 08-05-2014 18:37

Good answer,

I've been occasionally asked to evaluate rod/filler wire storage conditions. If it was gonna save a bunch of money or elimiante uncessary waste I would try something different, for example we used an old vacuum chamber that was sealed and had dessicant packs (confirmed with humidity monitor, and weld chemistry) to determine that we didn't need a heated rod storage oven. However "hey it's a hot and dry day". Doesn't really cut it as a quantifiable and justifiable excuse for poor low hydrogen control.

By Northweldor (***)

Date 08-05-2014 22:14 Edited 08-05-2014 22:37

Would rods "recover" in 10-12 hrs., (after an 8 hour exposure of resistant rod) in a vacuum-dessicant situation as they would in an oven? Just curious, as I once tried something like this, but got poor results.

By Stringer (***)

Date 08-05-2014 22:40

I think if it's 250 degrees F outside and not raining you should be good to go.

By Metarinka (****)

Date 08-07-2014 20:58

I honestly wouldn't know. It was a one way trip. We kept filler material in the chamber for long term storage (weeks to months) some of it wasn't properly bagged before and we had loss, it was a lot cheaper to use a vacuum chamber we already had then to use a heated oven that required power. Desicant packs could be dried out and reused and we only opened the chamber about once a day.

This wasn't for SMAW electrodes but solid and flux core wire for an aerospace application that were still moisture sensitive.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 08-09-2014 01:52

Kent,

Never heard back from you. Did you check in and see what was posted? Did we answer your 'real' question? I'm only guessing but I can't help but feel there was something 'behind' the question.

Can you reveal any reason for the query? Sometimes I'm just too curious.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By JTMcC

Date 08-09-2014 22:45 Edited 08-09-2014 22:51

I have no idea about Brent, but structural inspection I've dealt with in AZ, NM, NV, UT, CA desert areas over the last 30 years really don't give two hoots about the local climate nor forecast, adhere to the code or go home seems to be the average attitude.

As it should be. When the docs spec it, it's just spec'd. Comply or cut it out : )

It may be 118 with 18% humidity right now, but in two hours it might drop 2" of rain in 45 minutes at 72 degrees (my driveway will attest to that : )). There ya go.

J, filling the canyons in the drive via shovel/wheelbarrow. But, thankful for the much needed moisture.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 08-10-2014 01:30

Amen to the much needed moisture. Even though Sue and I got soaked on our last day at the Grand Canyon hiking the west end of the rim trail last weekend. We didn't complain one bit. And enjoyed God's awesome power and provision.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By kcd616

Date 08-19-2014 19:50

Brent,
work and life
never enough time
and not a Kent fishing idea :wink:

just asking, and always keep everything locked up in an oven overnight.
or it might walk off to the scrap yard :eek:

sincerely,
Kent