Not logged inAmerican Welding Society Forum
Forum AWS Website Help Search Login
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Volts to Amps
- - By OGN Date 08-18-2014 12:48
Hi,

I have been production welding with a mig welder for a few years but I don't have any technical knowledge as to what I am actually doing.
Everything I read online refers to the settings in amps, not volts. I run a Miller 252 and the digital read out is in volts. 
It hasn't been a problem when welding mild steel, I use to the recommended setting on the welders cheat sheet and it works good. 
Now with the thin stainless steel sheet metal and using a flux core wire I am having a hard time getting good welds that don't burn through.
I would like to know exactly what voltage I am using, but don't  know how to convert volts to amps when they are two completely different forms of measurement. 
Any advice or info would be greatly appreciated!
Parent - - By Blaster (***) Date 08-18-2014 13:16 Edited 08-18-2014 13:22
If you think of your wire speed as controlling the overall heat available and the voltage as controlling your arc length and puddle diameter you should be able to dial in.  There is more to it than that, but that is a simple way to think of it for dialing in.

I don't  think the Miller 252 has adjustable inductance, so you will never be optimum for stainless, but it should work OK.

Also, thin stainless is normally done with a tri-mix gas.  Your flux cored wire may operate on EN or EP, and May or may not need gas.
Parent - - By OGN Date 08-18-2014 14:50
According to the wire manufacturer we can run 75 argon 25 co2. May have to try the tri-mix despite the cost.
Thanks for the advice!
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 08-20-2014 20:32 Edited 08-20-2014 20:42
Let me try to help you where the rubber meets the road.

Knowing the amperage for a given wire feed speed is important, good discussion has been given to electrode extension (stickout) and how it effects the arc energy and weld profile.

Shame on Miller for not giving you a live amperage (current) reading  on your digital...  Lincoln does... Typically as the weld is being placed the readout for WFS will convert to live amps, so that a bystander can see what is actually happening. 

The 252 owners manual gives calculations (attached) that can put you in an actual ballpark (with a typical stickout)

If your FCAW filler calls for 75/25  use it and nothing else.... Do not change unless the manufacturers specifications allow for more than one gas or combinations...

Next... You said you were welding stainless (thin)  is your FCAW filler also stainless?  This can have a bearing as stainless fillers do not behave the same as carbon steel FCAW fillers.

Second attachment is from a data sheet for ChromaWeld 308LT1 by McKay....  Your FCAW Manufacturers data may be close to this... But it is an example how you can put the information provided here together to come up with WFS and Voltage rates that will serve you.

Lastly.   Technique.... Gas Shielded FCAW should be run with a drag (backhand) gun angle of 10-20 degrees... If you are running a push this could cause worm tracks and problems...  The only time you want to push is vertical-up or when purposefully trying to reduce penetration, and it still may cause problems.

Edit:   Your operators manual for the 252 does not give WFS recommendations for .045 wire....  There is a reason...  The machine is not heavy duty!   You did not mention filler dia. for your FCAW but .035 is the max recommended for that power supply.   .045 can be done at sometimes but it is just too big a conductor for the power supply design and the results may not be satisfactory.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 08-18-2014 16:23
Don't remember if mine is the 252 or 251 but I use Millers.  Mine has a voltmeter and a WFS/amp meter.  Now, most often you are best off to set your volts to the recommended setting then adjust wire feed speed to get it to run within manufacturer's specs and where it works best for the application. 

The amps are relational to the volt and wire feed speed setting (really proportionate to WFS but also directly related to volts.  The more volts you run the more WFS you will need to get a good burn off rate). 

Bottom line, you are not 'converting' volts to amps to know what you are running.  Wrong measurements to convert.

I seldom get at all concerned about amps.  I almost always go by the wire feed speed.  It is a fast and accurate and consistent way to monitor current control. Pull the trigger, let it run for 10 seconds, measure the wire length that came out, multiply by 6 and you have you inches per minute (ipm) to know your wire feed speed (WFS).  So much easier than using a volt/amp meter with no one to help read while welding. 

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By 357max (***) Date 08-19-2014 03:21
If it is fcaw inductance will not do much. Inductance would be for GMAW-S (Short Circuit) solid wire. If the machine needed inductance to "wet out" the stainless steel with short circuit this can be done with a couple of home made inductance controls. One method is to use a length 3 -4 foot of 6 inch diameter pipe and wrap the work lead around the pipe with tight coils. It is fully adjustable. Method two would be to use an AC welding machine and connect the 252 work cable to one of the output cables and then use the other cable to connect the work clamp. A moveable shunt machine is ideal because the shunt would adjust the inductance. The tri-mix would be used for short circuit. The gas mix would be 90% Helium, 7 1/2% Argon and 2 1/2% carbon dioxide.
Parent - - By Plasma56 (**) Date 08-20-2014 02:30 Edited 08-20-2014 02:32
Hey Buddy, I'm not going to change the world on you but I don't see it mentioned so I'm going to mention it. Stick out. Distance the wire extends from the end of the contact tip to work. You need to change it and I think it needs to be a little longer when your welding.

Hear me out. Voltage is puddle fluidity. Amperage is penetration. You don't need to convert anything you need to understand whats happening, thats education.
The term is resistance heating and its what I'm offering as a concideration.
If nothing changes, a longer stickout typically increases penetration slightly, narrowing the bead and thickening the puddle. The wire remains stiffer with less heating.
Shorting the stick out, changing no variables, results in a wider hot bead, less penetration. However...On thin materials, shorter stick out heats the material surface quicker because a wider bead slows down travel speed.

Extending the stick out cools the wire, shortening the arc length and width of the arc column. Base metal stays cooler longer.
Shorten the stick out and the arc length increases because the wire heats quicker, the arc column becomes wider, droplets wetter.

If you think Sub Arc these principles become more apparent. I might also mention, your shielding gas mixture, effects this as well due to arc column profiles and heat input due to shielding gas current potential. I would be curious as to what type of shielding gas mixture is being used.

Getting back on the subject, stick out is a variable. It's also ment to be a consistantly held variable. But if the pot of water doesn't change, and the pasta doesn't change in size, then the variable is where you hold your hand when you place it in the pot?
Thats what I have to offer.
Parent - - By jarsanb (***) Date 08-20-2014 14:09
You start pulling a longer electrode extension in hopes of "deeper penetration" then you can expect problems with GMAW-S. With this mode of transfer "penetration" is an over hyped term anyway. Incomplete fusion is usually the culprit when inadequate penetration is refered. The corrective action for each will also differ. When someone is trying to correct their penetration issues but the real issue is fusion then they become a dog chasing it's tail.
Parent - By Plasma56 (**) Date 08-21-2014 06:28
Jarsand my friend,
You are correct. If I was actually to seek  "deeper penetration", it wouldn't be by increasing wire stick out, that is what an increase in amperage /wire feed speed is supposed to bring about in the GMAW/FCAW/ SAW processes.
The issue was burn through on thin materials using FCAW. Typically thats a spray transfer process. In this case is was a reduction in penetration buddy was looking for. Not trying to over think or over expense this at length, a knowledgeable welder would have discovered as I mentioned, that by extending the stick out by a mm or three, the weld would still be shielded, this minor increase in stick out would increase the resistance of the wire, cool the arc, and thicken the puddle of molten metal about to burn through or your about to loose control of in your travel.

I agree penetration and fusion are often confused as one and the same. They are not.

Penetration is over rated. However, it usually is achieved with a stiffer wire?
Parent - - By OBEWAN (***) Date 08-20-2014 17:17
Are you using a weld procedure, or is this an open set-up process?  And, how is the quality verified?  Is visual confirmation of 100% penetration required and possible?

What is the configuration of the weld joint, and what material and thickness are you welding?

I don't want to make trouble, buy my first choice might be GTAW for a thin stainless application.

Aside from that, stick out as a variable is more likely to effect short circuiting mode than spray arc mode with the MIG process, although it could have some effect on both.

My experience has been that hotter processes with wider weld beads require faster travel speeds.  And, in short circuiting mode, longer stick out will result in wire stub outs and loss of shielding gas when the stick out is too long.  Then too, some wires have lubricants that must be burned off, and longer stick out is one way to prevent them from getting into the weld puddle - but you did not say that you are having problems with worm holes.

Brent has a good suggestion.  Maybe the Miller website has some useful information available for download, but if this is an open set-up, then perhaps documenting the voltage and the number setting for the wire feed will suffice once you and/or your team are satisfied with the results.
Parent - By Plasma56 (**) Date 08-21-2014 07:58
Greetings OBEWAN,

I Think welder but try to talk Jedi?
Excuse me.  I don't always do a good job of it.

Thinking welder I was solving my problem.

I did a similar job for an oil field company a large number of years back, similar in my mind anyways. It was a 6" - 20 footer of sch.80, who remembers CS perforated pipe, and I mean perforated with a zillion 5/16" holes, and I had the pleasure of welding the 10ga. SS screening ends covering the pipe, using an .035 SS FCAW wire and mixed gas of some kind? I'm not going to tell you what, but the what was a learning experience.
Your right, travel speed was for me as well a concern, my helper rolled as I welded. I discovered as mentioned, angle, inclination, puddle centering location as well stick out to control spray width and fluidity all conciderations in depositing sound weld metal, penetrating the pipe and fusion to the screen end.

Frankly, can't say enough for real world education in applying knowledge.
Anyways, you mention thin stainless and GTAW. I had a fellow bring me some 16ga 1" coped ss tubes, one with a left hand capped end I picked up on while playing with the nicely cleaned parts for welding...I didn't ask many questions at the time except to say $40 worked and I could do it, when I should have said yea, I'll give you $40 for the practice but I didn't. I wanted pizza that evening.
Turns out, the tubes were for bovine stomach inspection. Now your wondering about the cap right? Well, when they place it in the stomach,left side, the cow turns and licks at it. Left hand thread keeps the cap tight.

I fully agree the Miller site has excellent information and resources. I can say I'm a grad of their Power Course training and the online education is worthy of noting again. I was smart going in and got smarter thanks to the power of Blue. Gives me a shiver.
Parent - - By CWI7611 (**) Date 08-22-2014 23:58
I read all of the post and found them to be very interesting and informing. One question though, did anyone answer question about how you convert volts to amps? I was really looking forward to the answer to that question. Maybe someone has some magic up their sleeve.
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-23-2014 01:08
That's easy! Looki here below...

http://www.rapidtables.com/convert/electric/Volt_to_Amp.htm

Simple answer is: No, You can`t convert Amps to Volts directly but you can calculate the voltage required to furnish a given amount of current to a load with a known resistance or Wattage (Volt Amp) rating....

V = W/ I
So if you know the total Wattage(Volt Amps) required then divide that by the current (1300 Amps) and this will give you the required Voltage...

Also V = R x I
So if you know the total load resistance multiply it times the current (1300 Amps) and this will give you the required Voltage...

If you don`t know the total wattage (Volt Amp) rating nor the load resistance then I don`t know of any way how you can calculate the required Voltage...

Here's another example:

Watts = Amps*Volts

with a 120 volts

Watts = 1400A*120V = 168,000 Watts which is one big hunk of power

with 240 volts

Watts = 1400A*240V = 336,000 Watts which is an even a bigger hunk!

So the answer is no but, when you multiply volts times amps, your result is known as Watts.

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By CWI7611 (**) Date 08-25-2014 00:28
Thanks for letting me in on the secret of converting volts to amps :eek:. I know about watts but you have to know the volts and amps to come up with watts. A watt is a unit of power, what the electric company charge us for. I know it takes so many amps (theoretically) to burn one inch of wire (GMAW) knowing what the IPM for the wire feed would give you an approximation of amps, right?
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 08-25-2014 14:10
I posted a chart for that
Parent - - By OBEWAN (***) Date 08-25-2014 15:39
Sorry, I have been a little distracted recently.

The word on the street is that some welding suppliers have welding related smartphone apps. They might be useful during the development and qualification of established procedures; however, I have not tested any yet, and I don't know if they provide a cross reference between wire feed speed and amperage.  I don't know for sure, but there may be a way to run Android smart phone apps on a personal computer - but that could be complicated...

Here is a link to some apps that Miller Offers - I hope it helps - it sometimes pays to be practical

http://www.millerwelds.com/mobile/
Parent - By Metarinka (****) Date 08-26-2014 01:23
I can vouch for the miller smart phone app.  while not all encompassing it does give very good baseline welding parameters (including voltage for GMAW) based upon material thickness and type.  I often use it rather than digging up my own notes when doing new weld development, or non-commercial hobby projects.
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 08-29-2014 16:59 Edited 08-29-2014 17:03
My recommendation is to check with the manufacturer of the FCAW electrode you are using. They will tell you the correct parameters, i.e., arc voltage, wire feed speed, contact tip to work distance (or extension), the proper shielding gas, and probably welding current. Many manufacturer's have web sites where the information can be found. The truth of the matter is, the welder is better off if he does not pay attention to welding current. It is a variable that is dependent on CTWD.

You have a voltmeter on the machine and you can easily measure the WFS if you own a time piece and a ruler. Once you know the proper CTWD, the current will be correct (assuming you are using the gas they recommend).

Setting a FCAW up using current is a fool's game. Every time the welder changes the CTWD the current will change. I applaud the fact that the machine doesn't have an ammeter. I often put black tape over the ammeter so the welder cannot use it to set up the machine.

Keep in mind that not all FCAW electrodes are created equal. The optimum parameters for E71T-1 manufactured by company A and company B are going to be different. So, if one changes to a different manufacturer, the parameters will have to be changed for optimum performance.

Setting the FCAW machine by the seat of your pants is one of the easiest ways of getting into trouble. I've seen it happen time and time again. Use the manufacturer's recommended ranges and start with the parameters they define as optimum.

Using watts to go from voltage to amperage doesn't take into consideration the contact tip to work distance (represents resistance). The CTWD is a variable often overlooked when setting the parameters of the SA welding processes. Again, the optimum parameters for the same electrode classification vary from one manufacturer to another.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 08-30-2014 03:03
"Keep in mind that not all FCAW electrodes are created equal. The optimum parameters for E71T-1 manufactured by company A and company B are going to be different. So, if one changes to a different manufacturer, the parameters will have to be changed for optimum performance.

Setting the FCAW machine by the seat of your pants is one of the easiest ways of getting into trouble. I've seen it happen time and time again. Use the manufacturer's recommended ranges and start with the parameters they define as optimum."

I agree Al...
And the same goes for stainless steel FCAW electrodes or any other FCAW electrodes for that matter because of the various combinations and amounts of different chemical compositions that make up what is in the core of the electrodes which is the flux... One manufacturer is not going to have an identical chemical composition of another manufacturer of FCAW electrodes... They may be similar but, not identical as I can attest to that from using donated spools of FCAW electrodes from a variety of donors @ the schools I used to teach in.

I also agree that the OP shouldn't have such concern with respect to Amps/current and you brought up what could be the most important variable that is indeed overlooked regardless as to whether or not you just lectured and demonstrated why this parameter is crucial and must be paid attention to a class of students on the very topic only to observe and witness how fast the information I just shared with them went in one ear and out the other! And this was after they already received the very same information regarding this parameter when we started on GMAW prior to covering FCAW... Although, not all of my students had such lousy retention of the curriculum being taught... Just every once in a while I would have a group of well, let's just say - a little slow and dense who ended up becoming welders once I got through with them...:wink:

They all would start to whine about the settings on their power sources and wire feeders and yet totally neglected to observe their CTWD... Once  I let them know what they neglected to pay attention to, most of them let out a collective "sigh & Ahahhhh!" along with 2 or 3 who would say: " you see, I told you so!" And talk about the questions about why two spools of FCAW wire would weld differently with identical welding parameters yet, from different manufacturers...  Some of them would suggest that I carry only one brand to avoid any confusion in the shop when practicing FCAW and I would respond; " Well now, do you really think that every business is going to use the very same brand manufacturer of FCAW wire out in the real world?" And their reply would be silent with a deer in the headlights look and maybe an Ahah! every once in a while.:roll::lol::wink:
But they learned and most of them did very well for themselves... Excellent description and explanation Al as usual.

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 08-30-2014 03:19
It never fails to amaze me that so many experienced welders do not appreciate the influence of the electrode extension. One wonders where they learned to weld.

Most welders learn to weld on the job, like I did and so many others here in the forum. We only know as much as the person that taught us. All it takes is someone with the knowledge and patience to give a demonstration of how varying the electrode extension  (CTWD) affects the welding current. It took a little while to get out of the habit of trying to set the machine based on current, but a little time and effort of a knowledgeable mentor and the lesson final stuck. The worth of a good instructor is underappreciated.

Just as I appreciate the time and efforts of my mentors, I am sure your successful students appreciate everything you taught them Henry.

Best regards - Al
- - By ratisaluja Date 08-26-2017 17:21
Hi
I am new to GMAW, I had read that according to Miller 1/1000 inch we should take 1 ampere, is it a prediction or any defined rule, is there something I can calculate voltage before I weld.
as if I to weld 6 mm than according to Miller I should take 240 amp, which is too high.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 08-27-2017 17:38 Edited 08-27-2017 17:40
The "rule of thumb" of 1 amp per 0.001 inch of thickness is based on the assumption one wants to make a CJP groove weld in steel using a square groove preparation. It is nothing more than a starting point from which the user can decrease or increase the amperage to achieve what they are attempting to do.

There are other factors to consider such as the diameter of electrode, position, arc voltage, etc.

Al
Parent - - By ratisaluja Date 08-29-2017 07:55
can you plz tell basic calculations for current and voltage for single v groove ss joint
Parent - - By ratisaluja Date 08-30-2017 10:42
Thanks but it was for SAW not GMAW, consumables are different
Parent - - By Tyrone (***) Date 08-30-2017 11:16
Ratisaluja,
Welcome to the AWS Forum.

Lawrence gave you a starting point with Lincoln Electric's website.
Help yourself by searching there for GMAW consumables.
Parent - - By ratisaluja Date 08-31-2017 11:45
Thanks
Parent - - By jesperscott Date 02-24-2018 13:28
Simple answer is: No, You can`t convert Amps to Volts directly but you can calculate the voltage required to furnish a given amount of current to a load with a known resistance or Wattage (Volt Amp) rating....

https://www.calculatorology.com/volts-to-amps-calculator/

Formula

I (A) = V (V) / R (Ω), which means that the current in amps is calculated by dividing the voltage in volts by the resistance in ohms.

It can also be expressed as; amp = volt/ohms

For example;
If 45 V is the voltage supply of an electrical circuit which has a resistance of 20 Ω, what is the current flow?
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 02-24-2018 22:25
It's called Ohm's Law.

Al
Parent - By BIGDOG69 Date 03-05-2018 19:59
:evil::evil::evil::evil::twisted::twisted::yell::surprised:[img]:confused::confused::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::cool::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:[/img]
Parent - - By ratisaluja Date 08-31-2017 13:12
for welding 6mm 304L ss plate dia of mig wire should be 0.035 or 0.045 inch.
Parent - By BIGDOG69 Date 03-05-2018 19:59
kys ***
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Volts to Amps

Powered by mwForum 2.29.2 © 1999-2013 Markus Wichitill