Not logged inAmerican Welding Society Forum
Forum AWS Website Help Search Login
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / GTAW Aluminum Downhill Qualified?
- - By Sticky-SC Date 10-10-2014 11:16
Just curious if Downhill Gtaw is a Qualifiable weld?  A co worker runs his beads downhill (to save time), I don't have access to (#.#) aluminum code or (#.#) railroad code.   I told him I didn't think it was a qualified weld process, and he got pretty upset after I mentioned it and started to look in our "Welding procedures book"   it didn't have the direction of travel on the WPS.  its a 3/16 V weld on 1/8"

Unless its mig welding, ive neverbeen a fan of welding downhill.
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 10-10-2014 11:28
If you are working to AWS D1.2 there are essential variables that limit vertical welding to up or down. 

Table 3.1  Essential variables (changes outside these limits require requalification) says:
"Vertical welding: For any pass from upward to downward or visa versa."

The real question is:  Which specification governs your shop procedures, or are your shop procedures internally developed?
- - By Sticky-SC Date 10-10-2014 11:55
IM thinking its A5.3 & D15.1,  don't have it in front of me, and even though these codes are referenced, the code book is not readily available. haven't seen it. but its listed in (in house book).   The guy kinda blew up on me, like half the plant heard our discussion.  so we'll probably find out what the spec calls for on Monday.   During the discussion, he mentioned that "he passed the weld test"  flat position v-groove with backing, and horizontal T-joint fillet.   I told him that test wasn't downhill + vertical, but I doubt he understood.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 10-10-2014 17:33
What material did his passed consist of?  My first GTAW test was on carbon steel.  Didn't qualify me to run alum or stainless.  But many people think any test with the process qualifies them to do anything with the process. 

In D1.3, and others, downhill (vertical down) is acceptable.  D1.2 and D15.1 I'm not sure.  (Not sure what this A5.3 is?)  In D1.1 vertical down requires a PQR prior to developing the WPS then the welders will have to be tested in that procedure.  Been a very long time since I even scanned a copy of D15.1 so am way too unfamiliar with it to say.

In any code, a flat, or possibly horizontal depending on the exact position of the so called flat specimen, test will not qualify you for vertical or overhead.  Maybe qualified for flat and horizontal at best. 

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 10-10-2014 20:12
I agree Brent... Is A5.3 a filler metal spec? Hmmm.... The bottom line is the welder is NOT qualified to weld in the vertical position whether it's uphill or downhill if his qualification test was done in the flat & horizontal positions only... That's a "no brainer" to explain...

Finally, I wouldn't confront the welder after what happened today or even before the incident occurred... I would instead have contacted someone like his supervisor to call him in to the office, and have chat with him so that he can be informed of your responsibilities in the shop which I assume is QC correct? And to explain to the welder in the most understandable manner why he's not qualified to weld vertical whether it be uphill or downhill progression... And to remind him also that he's not to create a commotion in the shop like he did today and instead inform his supervisor of any issues he may have in the shop including any with you... And this all could have been avoided if you would have acted accordingly in the manner expected of you to pursue instead.. Please let me elaborate further...

I wouldn't have confronted the welder initially when I noticed that he wasn't qualified to weld in the vertical position if I were in your shoes... I would have got in touch with his immediate supervisor instead and explain to him why... So that the welder in question can be informed of the issue, and then subsequently qualified to weld via testing in the vertical position and correct the issue... I would also explain to his supervisor that an NCR is going to be written up and issued for all of the vertical welds that were already deposited by an unqualified welder for that position (Vertical with a downward progression), and not to accept the product is it stands until such actions as removal & replacement of the welds are performed by a qualified welder to that same position with whatever progression chosen for qualification ( The qualified welder must then weld in the same progression they qualified with) in order to get this issue into compliance...

Now when you do this, you must make sure you have chapter and verse (Clause and subclauses where it's written in the code book and anything else that may be in the contract specifications that's relevant to this issue) if you will, ready and available for the supervisor to review before you discuss the issue with them first, or else you're not going to be looked upon as a professional who has thorough knowledge of navigating, and understanding of the code & contract specs and they will question your ability to act as QC for the job/project in question...

Remember that it's not required of you to stop the welder for doing something you don't agree with, or isn't applicable to the code & contract being worked with... Instead of walking into a potential problem, you should always take issue with the immediate supervisor, and if they don't agree then simply inform them that you are going to write an NCR (Non-Conformance Report) for the work in question... Always act cordial and in a professional manner towards anyone no matter what level in the hierarchy they represent in the company you're working with... Remember what you first learned about your duties, and responsibilities as a CWI and you will avoid the issues regarding proper communication and potential confrontations ...

What's your job? To observe and report to the proper authority any problems you encounter regarding code, or even contractual compliance whether it's in the shop or in the field... You are not the welders supervisor, and you should always remember to communicate in a diplomatic manner even if the person is disrespectful or just plain nasty... And always maintain the option of dragging up and going on down the road if you think there's no chance that you will be able to help them comply if in fact this is the issue here...

If they are violating, or attempting to do so the ethics principles you were taught, don't buy into it because, if you accept this type of behavior, you're not worth a hill of buffalo turd if you don't maintain and protect your integrity... Not to mention any probable future liability issues that can pop up out of nowhere... Let his encounter be a lesson for you to remember and you'll go a long way.:eek::roll::grin::lol::wink::cool:

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 10-11-2014 12:14
You assume he is the QC?    The guy has never even laid eyes on the code.
Which if true makes him even less qualified than the welder he called out in front of everybody.

There is both more and less  going on here than this man's story is revealing.
- - By Sticky-SC Date 10-11-2014 20:27
I am not a QC, or CWI..  Failed my first attempt at D1.1 exam 2years ago.

Im just a welder.  I just mentioned this to him and he took it personaly when I looked to see if it was in any of the documentation. because I was not and still not sure that it is a qualified procedure.  we have a CWI but I haven't met him the 2 months ive been there.  bottom line is its not my call, I just suggested its probably not a good idea, when we were trained to spin the cart around and flip the part. where a horizontal weld can be made. he's just saving time.  i have asked a "lead tech" if downhill was acceptable and was told it wasn't.
Parent - - By Sticky-SC Date 10-11-2014 20:37 Edited 10-13-2014 04:33
I didn't call him out in front of everybody, I told him one on one.  Everyone heard because he started throwing stuff an yelling when he saw me looking at the documentation we have in the shop after i told him.

[img][/img]
that's one of his welds from a few weeks ago that came back.   our test was on AL but not sure how he passed.
Parent - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 10-12-2014 01:18
That does look really bad...  well then My bad... I thought you were a CWI the way you were writing in your previous posts... Live and learn...

So you're a welder there? Well then why don't you offer to help him out and show him how to weld? but offer it outside after leaving the premises so he doesn't cause another scene.
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 10-12-2014 01:33
"You can always tell a welder, but you can't tell him much."

That's what an engineer said to me many years ago when I was still earning a paycheck with my welding helmet. He had a point.

Vertical up versus vertical downhill progression is an essential variable for many welding standards (not ASME) for procedure qualification. Progression is an essential variable for all welding standards (that I am familiar with) for welder performance qualification.

With the exception of sheet metal gages, vertical downhill progression is not a good idea because aluminum has such high thermal conductivity, it needs all the heat you can muster. It is the very reason why pulsing is not usually needed when welding aluminum. Pulsing typically minimizes the heat input and can result in fusion type defects. Aluminum oxide forms immediately upon exposure to air. Heat is needed to break down the oxide layer that melts at a temperature about three times higher than the melting temperature of aluminum. Downhill vertical progression simply doesn't provide sufficient heat input to break down the aluminum oxide unless the welder is a religious zealot about cleaning the joint immediately before welding. If he is using downhill progression, I doubt he is taking the time to wire brush the joint properly.

I have used spray mode transfer on 1/8 inch thick aluminum using vertical uphill progression while qualifying the procedure and qualifying the welders. It works.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By jsdwelder (***) Date 10-16-2014 17:59
In most instances a vertical weld is made downhill to save time. With the GTAW process I really do not see where a downhill weld would be that much quicker than an uphill progression. GTAW aluminum is a pretty quick travel in any direction.
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / GTAW Aluminum Downhill Qualified?

Powered by mwForum 2.29.2 © 1999-2013 Markus Wichitill