Etching of some flat padding examples

By kcd616

Date 11-05-2014 06:54

nice work

sincerely,
Kent

By aevald

Date 11-05-2014 07:34

Thanks Kent, probably not everyone's cup of tea but I find it interesting. Best regards, Allan

By kcd616

Date 11-05-2014 17:22

Allan,
most everything you post is interesting to me
I wish you were closer, love to be in one of your classes and exchange knowledge
but this forum works also :cool:

thank you for your time and consideration
sincerely,
Kent

By electrode (***)

Date 11-05-2014 17:36

I second to that.
Always excellent contributions and nice etching in particular respect.

By aevald

Date 11-05-2014 17:58

Thank you all, gentleman and ladies respectively, I have been a reader more of a contributor as of late, but I always enjoy coming to the forum. Best regards, Allan

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 11-05-2014 19:47

Allan,
If you have time.... :twisted:

Do you think you could pad up additional etched samples showing the difference (or not) in the depth of penetration regarding pushing vs dragging travel angles in that same flat position?
Just throwing out something for the class to participate in and start some lines of thinking/conversation....

By aevald

Date 11-05-2014 20:31

Hello John, as this was SMAW, I didn't consider that sort of angle (push vs. drag). With regard to FCAW-G or GMAW I can certainly see a "proof is in the pudding" approach and agree that it might be a good way to show exactly the sort of thing that I believe you are talking about. I do believe that a person could put a lot of time/effort into illustrating various alterations in penetration due to process, shielding gas, machine types and capabilities, etc.

A while back I did mess around a bit with some push vs. drag welding on fillets with GMAW running with 98Ar/2O2 in the spray transfer mode. With the results that I got I didn't really feel that there was such a definitive difference with this combination. I did not pursue this extensively and so I certainly wouldn't say that a single attempt at something like this is wholly representative of actual happenings.

I regret to say that our college dropped our metallurgy program quite a number of years ago. We had an A1 instructor with a great deal of applicable and theoretical knowledge who was running it and we miss his help a lot. At that time we also had a lot of equipment that was capable of properly preparing specimens for etching and other destructive type testing operations. In our chemistry area they have a spectrum analyzer and a few other similar types of equipment, off and on I have been trying to get with these folks and see about sharing/incorporating some of our students from the two groups to promote collaboration and also give our students and theirs a bit of insight into what's on the other side of the fence with regard to career choices. I have always believed that welding is almost too broad of a term with regard to the possibilities that stem from the directions that folks can go that incorporate welding or it's many different forms.

I am kind of on the backside of the trades at this point in my life and one thing that I have figured out is that life is certainly backwards (I know that's certainly no news to anyone here), we get older and hopefully wiser and as we do we are exposed to so much more that we wish we had time to experience and figure out, that's kind of where I am at right now. Trying to name names of all of the folks that I have had the pleasure of interacting with during my life is impossible, I can simply say that much of what I share on here has come from those interactions and hopefully are accurate and true to the original sharing that occurred when I learned. Well I'm getting kind of windy so I'll step back for now and thanks for the comments John. Best regards, Allan

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 11-05-2014 21:04

Allan,
I did the etch sampling of FCAW (Push vs Drag) several years back and saw some (ever so slight) difference in the depth of pen at the root of fillets.

Some guys get creative with SMAW wiggles and whips and have seen E7018 travel angles so varied that I figured it must have some effect.

I appreciate your pictures and sharing your thoughts with the forum...always good to see people sharing what they have found through varied testing.

By Tyrone

Date 11-05-2014 11:43

Yep, shows up real well Allan.

I like the effect of too far apart. I'm surprised at the shallow penetration you got with the 7018.
Thanks for the pics.

Tyrone

By aevald

Date 11-05-2014 15:35

Actually Tyrone, I wasn't expecting to see as much as was there. These beads were run using Lincoln Excalibur 1/8" electrode at roughly 125 amps on 3/8" plate. I'm going to have to see about running some Lincoln 5P or 5P+ and see what the penetration profile looks like with that rod. I think that will be interesting. At least visually when you are running the E6010 I believe that you see more of the "dig" as the beads are being applied. Another thing that I have deducted from looking at this piece is that when the welds were overlapped more or too tightly, there was a considerable reduction in the penetration profile, at least for the beads that followed the initial pass. Thank you for your comments and best regards, Allan

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 11-05-2014 12:13

Your etching looks good Allan :grin:

By aevald

Date 11-05-2014 15:36

Thanks John, I felt the the sulfuric acid did a better job of bringing out the contrast than some that I had done with a Nitol solution. Best regards, Allan

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 11-05-2014 16:19

Nice example to show those who don't understand how much, or little depending upon point of view, penetration they can expect.

Great Pic Allan.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By aevald

Date 11-05-2014 16:26

Thanks Brent.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 11-05-2014 19:13 Edited 11-05-2014 19:24

As usual, another excellent visual teaching aid Allan... :grin:

I personally would like to see more fabricating as well as welding tips and tricks you have up your sleeves because the previous posts are very good teaching aids... And the accumulation of knowledge, methods, techniques, short cuts, and safety first type of idea's you have already posted and shared with us over the years are very beneficial for up and coming students who don't want to end up being nothing more than "rod burners and trigger pullers... " :eek:

The wide diversity of the methods, safety reminders, short cuts, and techniques have and will inspire students to expand their horizons beyond just welding alone... And prepares them into becoming multi-skilled as well as multi-talented in pertinent and relevant area's that are involved with never ending new technologies in both welding and fabrication that constantly require, and demand so much more diverse attributes and talents from graduating students today than what was expected from us and the graduates of our time... :surprised:

You have much to share Allan, and many of us in here are eager to become sponges, ready to absorb as much as you can squeeze out of yours Allan :lol:

So don't be such a stranger like you have as of late because speaking for myself, I become happy when you post something to share with us as freely as you always have and I try to do the same with my consistent walls of text to share also... I hope to see you post more often, and I have to put you on the spot and ask you this question Allan, but please do not feel as if I'm backing you into a corner and I'm being overly persuasive with this question that is also a suggestion... :grin:

Have you given any thought on developing an outline for a combined fabrication & welding skills book that mostly concentrates on the fabrication skills and techniques that are becoming more and more demanded from graduating students by employers @ small to medium size companies? A book that you can leave your legacy available and ready to share for the next generation of students to absorb and learn from? Are you working on one currently? :eek:

In any event, I look forward to your next post Allan. :roll:

Respectfully,
Henry

By aevald

Date 11-05-2014 20:46

Wow Henry, I am humbled by your post. Thank you! In another previous post I got a little bit windy about a couple of topics so I'll try not to rehash them here. I have been blessed, I believe, with an active mind and a fairly good gift for observation over the years. I have also been that person who has been tasked with a challenge on many occasions and have felt the need to attempt to solve and simplify the welding and fabrication approaches that needed to take place. Trying to remember them all and the reasons for employing particular methods is often the biggest challenge. As I don't work in industry quite as much as I used to I don't see the sorts of things that I used to on a regular basis and let's face it, welding and fabrication ARE about seeing and doing in most cases.

As to your suggestions Henry, I never stop thinking and scheming, so you may very well see something as you mentioned in the future. I do have "a book", referring to some fabrication things, I use it in the fabrication class that I teach. The issues with this book and class are that time, money, space, resources, and other things do limit the extent of exposure that students can really experience. I also constantly scheme to add to this situation and improve the results.

For the many who come to this forum I would only ask that everyone who has this sort of information to share, step forward and do so. For one thing, I enjoy and learn, and for another, as you, Henry alluded to, the future of our trade(s) will depend on doing just this sort of thing. Gotta go for now. Thanks again Henry and best regards, Allan

By kcd616

Date 11-05-2014 21:50

Allan
you should know your one of the best :cool:

I have very little respect for anyone
you I have respect for
that Al Moore :cool:

another idea
sincerely,
Kent
btw: Al best in the business

By 803056

Date 11-06-2014 01:35

Thanks for the compliment!

Al

By kcd616

Date 11-06-2014 10:38 Edited 11-06-2014 18:21

your welcome!
have a nice day
Kent
edit: btw stop by the fornius booth @ fabtech and say hello to Stephine Gibson, nice girl, and good company

By Superflux (****)

Date 11-05-2014 23:14

Allan,

Thanks for that fantastic example.
For those of us that wish to continue with this, I was wondering what strength of sulfuric acid did you use?
Would Battery acid from the Auto parts store work?
Also, was that "hand finished" or a belt driven 2000 grit sanding?

By aevald

Date 11-05-2014 23:52

Hey John, as to the finishing: belt sander first with a worn 60 grit belt, then on to manually-rubbed 2000 grit, first via a figure eight pattern with the sand paper on a flat surface and then, more than just a bit of additional "hand rubbing". I actually got to a mirror finish using that method and was rather surprised. As to the acid: yes it's just battery acid that was left over from one of those deals where you get the battery with the acid to fill it with. I hung onto the extra acid for just such an occasion. I do believe there are better etching options, I have just been too lazy to pursue what those are. Best regards, Allan

By 803056

Date 11-06-2014 01:34

Nice work Allen!

Best regards - Al

By aevald

Date 11-06-2014 01:36

Thank you, Al

By Superflux (****)

Date 11-06-2014 13:22

Thank you Allan,
I hope to make some of these when I get back home after Thanksgiving.
I think auto parts stores can sell the electrolyte for battery recharging.

By PlasmaHead2 (***)

Date 11-07-2014 22:37

Nice pics!
How long do you expose it to the acid before you neutralize it?

By aevald

Date 11-07-2014 23:10

Hello Clif, unfortunately this process has been a highly non-scientific approach on my part. I polished it as I described, I used a plastic dropper to apply the acid and carefully spread it around on the edge of the piece being careful not to actually rub the surface of the part but more so to spread the acid evenly. Probably allowed exposure for roughly 5 minutes and then simply rinsed the acid off with water. I did not scrub or dry it with a cloth or anything, just let it air dry. Then I took some photos of it. If I were to rub on it it is likely that the definition would vanish and not show much of anything. That is where I should really check into a more accepted, tried, and true method of etching. Thank you for the inquiry. Best regards, Allan

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 11-07-2014 23:47

ASTM 381 recommends Hydrochloric/muriatic as a first choice; Sulfuric as a second choice; ammonium persulfate as a third choice; and Nitric (which is said to oxidize faster than some of the others to show the differences in the grain and material composition and density) as a fourth choice.

It gives the differing methods of polishing as different acids will require different preparation of the surface. It also gives a time of about 15-30 minutes while submerged in the acid supported on glass rods to keep it from sitting on the bottom of the container. Clean with a stiff fiber brush, not metal, under running water to remove 'smut' from acid reaction.

While diluting acid, REMEMBER, ALWAYS ADD ACID. Don't put water in a container of acid, splashing normally occurs and is hazardous.

Without getting real detailed, that covers basics.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By aevald

Date 11-08-2014 00:13

Thank you for all of that Brent, now I'll have to get serious about doing this sort of thing correctly. Best regards, Allan

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 11-08-2014 01:40

One must remember as well that acids come in different dilutions so before just buying and mixing you need to know what the final solution is supposed to be.

You can buy Muriatic already diluted as used to clean driveways, swimming pools, etc. Too weak. Buy the concentrated and dilute yourself to...1to1 mix I believe on that one. Others are different.

But if not doing it for a certification where exactness is important, anything will work just to clean it up and help you see the penetration and/or discontinuities.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By aevald

Date 11-08-2014 01:44

Hello again Brent, in a very important regard I have resident chemists on staff, ie. the chemistry instructors who have been very helpful in the past with chemical procurement, safety, etc. Always appreciate the words of wisdom though. Regards, Allan

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 11-08-2014 01:51

Colleges can actually do that?? :lol:

Right. Just rambling, don't mind me.

Good for others to know anyway.

BB

By aevald

Date 11-08-2014 02:02

Ah Brent, just because they can doesn't mean they will, if you follow my drift. Allan

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 11-07-2014 23:56

I am trying to find, but don't have it on the computer apparently, a copy of... B 4.1?? Mechanical Testing of Welds? I think. It goes through several procedures but I can't remember if Macro-etching is in it.

If you have a copy you might check that out.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent