Fronius vs Miller

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 01-26-2015 22:57 Edited 01-26-2015 23:00

Hi Tim,

When you say product, are you referring to shop electric based power sources that can be adaptable to use in robotic applications? I ask this because if you're referring to portable fossil fuel engine driven power sources, I don't think Fronius has one in their product line... So I'm going to presume you're referring to shop electric equipment...

Now as far as overall quality is concerned, Fronius beats Miller hands down... However, that is not the only consideration one must look at in deciding which manufacturer to go with as you already know... With respect to service and support, I would have to say that Miller should be much better than Fronius in the USA, yet the exact opposite may be the case in Europe where Fronius has built it's reputation over the years, and it's where they first started just as Miller has done on this side of the pond... For price, I would say miller has an edge... As far as performance is concerned, Fronius hand down! And I already described which company most likely has better support and service in the USA - Miller...

I'm not going to tell you how to make the right choice between the two because I'm also going to presume that you have experience in doing so and you have your own idea of what your needs are for your situation... I will suggest that you check out both platforms and compare the two because just by asking both to show you a practical demonstration of each manufacturers equipment as close to how you want the power source interfaced with a robot to be configured as closely as possible to perform similar manual, mechanized, and automated applications of your choosing and then compare the two... And if you only get a response from one of the two manufacturers, and they deliver basically what you had in mind, then the choice will be ever so clear for you to make, but that's up to you Tim. :grin:

Respectfully,
Henry

By TimGary (****)

Date 01-27-2015 13:09

Thanks Henry.

Tim

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 01-27-2015 13:45 Edited 01-27-2015 13:48

To compare Miller vs Fronius you really have to stretch.

It's all about application and fit for purpose in my opinion.

I've had extended hands on with all of them in a manual setting and consulted with folks using Fronius with automated systems.

All around: For GMAW you would need Axcess, PipePro, and Invision side by side to do the things the Fronius can accomplish both manually or in an automated setting.

Axcess get's some points for adaptation to automated systems... Looses points for manual touchpad stupidity.. Looses points for no Aluminum GMAWP

PipePro does what it does very well... but little else.

Invision has AMAZING synchronized wire feed and GMAW pulsing capability for aluminum. (but awkward touchpad) It's stainless GMAWP is good. It's carbon steel GMAWP is good with .045 and .035

BTW... A Lincoln S350 or S500 can do just about anything the Axcess and Invision can do, and it's in a single box.

The Fronius Has the unchallenged leadership in GMAWP and synchronized wire feed pulsation. It has the leadership in current control with Cold Metal Transfer (CMT) and its Hybred CMT/Pulse.. Nobody comes close to this for thin material, manual welding and high speed automation.

An example:
An exhaust manufacturer in the upper Midwest was attempting to make an automated internal fillet (thin tube to thin tube) that needed zero distortion or melt thru (not even a bump or wrinkle) so that it could be chromed and pretty.. The ONLY vendor that could do the weld consistently was Fronius CMT/Pulse. Perfect/fast/consistent.

Support?   Fronius, and Lincoln for that matter will typically stand with a new customer with technical support right through PQR's and 1st production runs if it is something new.... I have not found this kind of support with Miller in the last few years and it breaks my heart.

The question really is this: Do you need the *extra* capability that Fronius supplies ?

The Fronius system is prolly about $5K more per unit... But that is NOTHING in the long run if it can do things the other machines can't do. On the other hand, if you don't need it, why have it?

If you are doing automated systems that can include weld mapping, or even high production manual GMAW.. I would look at Lincoln S500 and CheckPoint, Cloud based Data Monitoring systems.... Miller is beginning to get into the Data Monitoring game, but have a long way to go.   In Fact, running in the background behind this post, I have the stats for every power supply in 3 factories. All OEE Factors, EVERY MACHINE, wire deposition to the ounce, unscheduled downtime, live, by the hour, day, week, or month. I can adjust all operating parameters in any of these power supplies and lock them down from my desk.. (Manual or Automated) Heck, I even have it send me an email when the 500 lb. filler kegs are down to 5 lbs.

Anyhow.. As you can see, this is one of my favorite subjects :)    I think your needs have the biggest influence on whether a Fronius is something to look at.

By TimGary (****)

Date 01-27-2015 14:33

Thanks for the input Lawrence and Henry.

We're doing high volume manufacturing of carbon steel square tube/plate/sheet structural weldments.
Working in a little aluminum and SS product.
Thicknesses range from 18 gage to 2".
We use predominately Miller Axcess, with a sprinkling of Lincoln, ESAB and Fronius mixed in, both manual and robotic.
5% short circuit, 65% Pulse, 25% Spray, 5% RW.

Henry - All shop electric, no combustion engine equipment.

I've become a big fan of Miller Axcess equipment, becuase I can fine tune the arc to excell at anything I need, low or high deposition, .030 to .052 solid wire, and can eliminate spatter in most cases.
I've also found Miller's service to be beyond exceptional and get great pricing to boot.

I'm not as familiar with Fronius as Miller, but every time I've used it, I was very impressed with it's arc performance. Probably even smoother arcs than Miller.
I don't mind paying appropriately for good equipment, but Fronius's pricing is pretty steep, and service is slow and costly.
I recently had a manual CMT demo in my shop in aluminum sheet. It worked well, but for our needs, which are very basic, there was not enough benefit to justify the added expense over Miller Accu-Curv and Profile Pulse.

I've used a lot of Lincoln equipment over the years, and it's never let me down. Always good, dependable stuff, almost as smooth as Miller.
Lincoln equipment pricing is competitive with Miller, but service is slow and costly, and when the chips are down, too often non-existent.

ESAB is OK, but I've not used it enough to develop an opinion.

Just breaking in to Data collecting software, Miller and Lincoln.
I consider this to be the future of our welding program, just need to develop resouces and convince management to invest in it.

I sound pretty biased toward Miller, which I am, but I'm trying to gather all the info I can to make as much of an un-biased comparrison as I can.

Thanks again,
Tim

Anyone else care to chime in? Please do.

By aevald

Date 01-27-2015 15:32

Hello Tim, I believe that Lawrence and Henry have definitely covered all of the bases with regard to these two producers. I can see where Miller has the edge in the service arena as they are based in the US and in my experiences have been excellent with their service and parts. Although in my case we have not had failures on any of our Miller equipment(knock on wood).

I have been around Fronius in a limited amount yet, have found that their equipment has amazing capabilities and pretty much flawless performance. As you said though, they have a hefty price tag to go along with it. I was able to play with the manual CMT on some aluminum/steel materials and was also able to use their GTAW on aluminum, loved it. Additionally, they have some really great ergonomics and the equipment is well thought out with regards to features and layout.

I can certainly see where you would be well satisfied with Miller's line-up. Other than some operating features that are a bit confusing at times to put into use, I believe that the performance end of their equipment is very good and the technical support, at least for us over here, has been excellent. We have one of the Invision units with a D74 feeder and it is a joy to work with. We also appreciate the excellent aluminum capabilities of this unit. In addition to this model, we have 8 350MPa's with compatible MPa feeders and they have a ton of features as well, certainly enough to confuse students when they initially attempt to use all of the available capabilities. Good luck with your research and have a great day. Best regards, Allan

By Jarhead1 (**)

Date 01-28-2015 16:26

Tim - My thoughts.....Recently I was looking to purchase a Pulsed MIG machine for a large aluminum job (basically and all-around machine once aluminum job slowed down) and brought in 2 demo units Miller 350P and a Fronius TPS/I.
Same position, I'm very familiar with Miller (Blue machines) and was much less familiar with Fronius. Both machine small package wire feeder built-in. Couple guns included alum /steel.
The long and short both machines performed very well Miller easy setup great support exactly what I was looking for in a machine.
The Fronius machine great machine water cooled system lots and lots of bells and whistles and a super duper pulsed mode that laid a aluminum bead that looked like a stack of nickels, impressive to say the least.
The Miller around 6k with 2 guns aluma- pro push pull and basic Bernard gun.
The Fronius machine same setup 20k.
I'm not sure what others opinions are - I think Fronius currently is understaffed and lack support in the US, although they might have some descent equipment if you are building rocket ships and could justify costs.
My advice - Please do your due diligence..

By TimGary (****)

Date 01-28-2015 19:20

Thanks!
Sounds like my experience with both.

Tim

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 01-28-2015 20:20

Miller 350P may be the best bang for the buck in the industry.

By Superflux (****)

Date 01-29-2015 13:48

My take for years has always been:
If you want specialty..Go Lincoln.
Ya want broad spectrum.. go Miller.
I have no experience with Fronius

By TimGary (****)

Date 01-27-2015 21:16

Impressive

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 01-28-2015 00:30 Edited 01-28-2015 02:10

If you go to the CRC Evans web site, you will notice if you look hard enough @ the various welding machine model# links they have one model (P-600) showing Fronius power sources as part of the standard package for that model... Here's the link.. Now pay attention to the video where you will notice the Fronius power sources:

http://www.crc-evans.com/equipment/welding-equipment/p600

The other models are shown with other different sources like a Miller power source as part of their standard package and I presume that they can customize any customers request to use their choice for a power source to use within their various system model#'s...

Btw, Has anyone seen or used this equipment yet? Does the name read as a familiar one?

http://www.kjellberg.de/files/Documents/Welding/Products/Others/Product_brochure_en.pdf

Here's their main page in English:

http://www.kjellberg.de/Welding-Equipment.html

Hey Lawrence if you haven't heard of these folks yet take a look because they're looking to come across the pond like Fronius recently did... Enjoy the read!Below is a picture of their factory of manufacturing welding equipment back in 1925... Here's their YouTube link:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl24p_eSpBjuDnKqoH_CjIg/featured

Respectfully,
Henry

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 01-28-2015 02:03

Never heard of em Henry.

Interesting niche market stuff!

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 01-28-2015 02:11 Edited 01-28-2015 02:18

Do you recognize the name as it refers to the history of welding? Maybe this will help:

http://www.kjellberg.de/About-us/Structure/History-Kjellberg-Finsterwalde.html

Niche market stuff? I think they're beyond that Larry. :roll:

Respectfully,
Henry

By Lawrence (*****)

Date 01-28-2015 12:09

Just by skimming there English language website I saw a really advanced GTAW hybrid, but no standard GTAW equipment. I saw no GMAW equipment at all.

The SAW stuff looked interesting... But Niche to me just means they are not trying to meet every part of the market :) Seems like all the stuff they are offering is on the very high end.

By ssbn727 (*****)

Date 01-29-2015 07:25

Hey Larry,
Look @ their Catalog on page 19 of 48 to look @ their GTAW model... As far as reaching every part of the market, I do agree that the selection is limited and perhaps because they probably were only interested in selling within the German and Swedish markets prior to this new push towards globalizing their visibility... Here's the link to their catalog:

http://www.kjellberg.de/files/Documents/Welding/Products/Others/Product_brochure_en.pdf

Their main claim to fame: In 1908, Oscar Kjellberg receives the German imperial patent no. 231733: “Electrode and procedure for electrical soldering” and is therefore recognised as the inventor of the coated welding.
1921
Seven Swedish and German partners establish the “Kjellberg Elektroden GmbH” in Berlin. Largest shareholder is the Swedish company ESAB with its general managing director Oscar Kjellberg.
1922
Upon Oscar Kjellberg’s suggestion the Kjellberg Elektro-Maschinen GmbH is established in Finsterwalde. The goal is to manufacture suitable welding generators for Kjellberg electrodes.
1923
The first welding generator Ke 200/1450 developed and built in Finsterwalde is presented at the spring fair in Leipzig.
In Finsterwalde the production of welding electrodes starts. The oldest product is the rod electrode OK G2/1, which was used for repair welding.
1937
Kjellberg provides three technological versions for automatic welders: with electrode head for endless welding of rod electrodes, with welding head for bare wire coils and with carbon head for thin sheet welding.
1941
The patented Kaell-Kjellberg-Lundin method improves the efficiency of metalworking considerably. A double wire electrode is thereby welded in three arcs at the same time.

Kjellberg is the world’s largest manufacturer of arc welding technology.
1943
After just two months of development Kjellberg introduces the so-called “Maulwurf” – “the mole” – the first industrial solution for automated submerged arc welding.
1962
Kjellberg Finsterwalde supplies the first industrial plasma cutting unit WSH III-M with 50 KW.
1962
Kjellberg files the patent for FineFocus plasma cutting.
1963
The plasma melt cutting unit PA 100 is the first machine which is manufactured in series production at Kjellberg in Finsterwalde.
1966
Introduction of FineFocus plasma cutting with the PA 20. Increased cutting speeds, dross free cuts and new processing options contribute to its international success
1970
For 20 years the company is incorporated into the so called “Mansfeld combine” as people-owned enterprise “Schweißtechnik Finsterwalde” – company for welding technology.
For the first time ever air is used as carrying gas for plasma cutting.
1971
For the first time plasma cutting machines are used in parallel operation. Eight machines of the first series are delivered to Japan.
1973
The cutting unit PA 40 cuts with oxygen for the first time. This innovation positions plasma cutting as cost-effective technology in the market.
1984
The Japanese O-A-Mach Corporation in Tokyo obtains a license for production and sales of plasma cutting torches, since the required delivery quantity for the Japanese market can’t be fulfilled in time in Finsterwalde due to lack of capacities.
1986
The underwater plasma cutting technology opens up a new application area. This is made possible by introducing the plasma cutting unit PA 50UWP with swirl gas technology.
Inverters are available as all new generation of welding power sources, later also for plasma cutting machines.
1991
The company is reorganised and a new national and international distribution system is established, the entire product range is replaced by new developments.
1993
The first CNC-controlled multi-bevel trimming plant with two triple-bevel heads worldwide is used for the project "Shipbuilding 2000" at the shipyard HDW Kiel - technology developed by Prof. Friedrich-Wilhelm Bach of the University of Dortmund. The plasma cutting of flat bulb bars is made possible due to specially designed robot torches.
2000
HiFocus, a new plasma cutting technology with laser-like precision, captures the market.
With enhanced modules for the new automatic welder series KA Kjellberg Finsterwalde meets the increasing demand for submerged-arc welding technology.
2001
The launch of the HiFinox technology enables for the first time worldwide metallic blank and dross-free cutting of thin sheets of chromium nickel steel.
2004
The very first flow-controlled automatic plasma gas supply worldwide is a big step towards a new dimension of quality and reproducibility of plasma cuts.
The implementation of the HiFocusPLUS technology enables higher cutting speeds and nearly vertical plasma cuts.
With three FineFocus 800 plasma cutting machines connected in parallel and a customised exchangeable plasma torch for 900 A a new record is established: for the dismantling of nuclear reactors stainless steel walls of 130 mm thickness are cut in water depths of several meters.
2006
The HiFocus 280i and 360i plasma cutting machines with primary clocked inverter technology extend the HiFocus series.
2007
The Kjellberg foundation announces a 20 million euro investment plan designed to secure the future of Kjellberg Finsterwalde.
A new generation of consumables called YellowXLife increases the lifetime of the consumables and, thus, reduces set-up times significantly due to their high quality.
2008Kjellberg Finsterwalde Elektroden und Maschinen GmbH headquarters
The HiFocus 440i is successfully placed on the market as the world’s most powerful plasma cutting machine.

And this probably explains where they are @ currently:
The Kjellberg Finsterwalde Elektroden und Maschinen GmbH is demerged into three separate companies. The Kjellberg Finsterwalde Plasma und Maschinen GmbH, the Kjellberg Finsterwalde Schweißtechnik und Verschleißschutzsysteme GmbH and the Kjellberg Finsterwalde Elektroden und Zusatzwerkstoffe GmbH are established as a result thereof.
The Kjellberg Finsterwalde Schweißtechnik und Verschleißschutzsysteme GmbH’s headquarters move to the North-Rhine-Westphalian city of Witten.
The Kjellberg Finsterwalde Elektroden und Zusatzwerkstoffe GmbH inaugurates its new manufacturing facility at the Massen location.

Their problem is with their marketing and PR department that doesn't seem to want to venture out as much as she should towards emerging markets beside China and India... And since they have "demerged" recently they only look like they're offering niche type products only although, they must be making a pretty decent margin for their specialty systems. products.

Respectfully,
Henry

By TimGary (****)

Date 01-28-2015 13:17

Thanks for the info Henry.

Nope, haven't heard of Kjelberg.
Hope I get to try them out sometime.

Tim