Welder Qualification Vertical Progression Uphill & Downhill

Date 03-25-2015 19:15

"On the 3G coupon he ran uphill on the roots and downhill for the remaining passes. The WPS allows for uphill and downhill progression."

Finishline,

So, is there a PQR that the WPS is written from? I ask because it doesn't matter what the WPS "allows" when it is not code acceptable unless it was approved by testing.

How did you test it? RT or bends? I ask this because personally, even with a PQR that says it is achievable, I can make these welds pass VT and RT but they still won't pass a bend test. In my shop or if I were the customer you would not use it if you can't prove you can make it pass a bend test.

I need to do some checking, once the procedure is qualified and the welder is qualified to the procedure then you can have a WPS written that includes both and you can combine them in production. I don't believe you can for welder qualification. I know you can't if you don't have a PQR.

Your not going to get any guidance from the samples or Table because you are outside the arena of pre-approved procedures.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By FinishLine (*)

Date 03-25-2015 22:36 Edited 03-25-2015 22:40

The WPS is one of the SWPS available from AWS, B2.1-1-027-2011 so I don't have copies of the PQRs...I guess they pull them from a bunch of different people in the industry.

I did bend tests for qualification. In my eyes the uphill and downhill passes passed the bend test and the WPS allows for both so he is qualified for both but thought I would ask on here. It is easier to fix with another test than in the middle of a job when a QC guy's looking through my paperwork searching for a mistake.

Brent I left a message at your office the other day...wanted to touch base since I didn't make it to the meeting. I was knee deep in some 6061-T6 GMAW-P work which ended up take twice as long as I planned!

By 803056

Date 03-27-2015 02:53

Ah yes, the famous SWP that allows anything and everything to be done in production.

I would venture to say that the welder is required to weld the entire coupon using vertical uphill progression or vertical downhill progression, but not both on the same coupon.

Remember, the SWPS is not automatically acceptable unless the Owner's Engineer approves their use. I would ask for that approval in writing.

Best regards- Al

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 03-27-2015 15:00

Ah, so that's who that was. My wife sent the message to me.

We are moving, sold the house which 'housed' the office as well. Phones went out but it wasn't at the house, something at the road had to be repaired. Computers are down except if I'm not driving and not on the reservation. And I'm working in Chinle and Flagstaff. So, I'm hard to catch. This is one of the best places as long as I am working somewhere with internet.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 03-27-2015 15:39

Off personal, back to OP,

So, I have to agree with Al if you hadn't noticed my direction of leaning already. To qualify the welder to that is not something I would find acceptable.

One must keep in mind the progression and purposes of the applicable code. The welder qualification is done a specific way. This is to be kept separate from wishes of a company or customer to see what a welder can do in a specific production situation.

But, in either event, to qualify the welder to both with one plate test does not meet the objectives of Clause 4 Part C: Performance Qualification. Look at Table 4.12. Direction in vertical is an Essential Variable. So, how can a non-qualified welder be qualified to both at the same time, with the same coupon?

When Procedures are qualified they do not become the criteria for welder qualification. They are used to develop applicable WPS's for production. The tension samples may pass on the vertical down simply because of the vertical up that had enough penetration and other metallurgical properties to 'pull' it along with it. And you did side bend on heavy plate. How about if you tried this on 3/8 plate with a face and a root bend?

I know it is possible to achieve. I have done it. That's not the question. The question is as to proper procedures being followed in order to qualify a welder per the applicable code. Just because you have a SWPS that calls out welding in the vertical position in both directions does not make that a proper, acceptable, performance qualification test.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By FinishLine (*)

Date 03-27-2015 19:50

Great input guys thanks for the information :lol:

By TimGary (****)

Date 03-27-2015 20:13

OK, for arguments sake.... :evil:

If I have a qualified PQR for full pen groove, multipass joint, 3G, with both up and downhill passes,
Can I qualify a Welder for both up and down hill, with one test plate based on the qualified PQR plate?

Tim

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 03-27-2015 21:10

In My Two Tin Pennies Worth of OPINION From my perspective of your question and considering the wording of the question: No and Yes.

First, you did qualify a welder to that exact procedure when someone welded it in order to get the PQR.

But, second, that welder is normally someone who is already qualified to D1.1 specifications via Clause 4 stipulations in the text, tables, and figures applicable to your needs; limited vs unlimited, positions, pipe vs plate, etc.

So, as such, third, you, as employer and/or QC or the customer has the option of saying, no, the standard welder qualifications as outlined in D1.1 Clause 4 are not good enough, I need to know beyond the shadow of a doubt that each welder who will be utilized on my job can do this specific weld (be it the material, joint configuration, process, welding parameters, etc that made a PQR necessary).

Since, normally, once the original PQR is established that the procedure is able to be accomplished with all the proper test results the rest of the welders need only be qualified per D1.1 Clause 4 Performance Qualification and then follow the WPS written from the PQR. Now, there is a glitch with the downward progression. Again, my opinion, is that any welder using this mode would need to pass a vertical down test first. That would need it's own PQR. Once they have proven that ability, they should be good to go with the combo PQR with no further testing as they have proven the ability to weld all the way out either up or down. (I'm trying even in my own mind to keep D1.1 qualification separate from a company PQR qualification).

Thus, fourth, either as part of a hiring process or for a specific job requirement you can most assuredly use that PQR to test welders. And, once they pass, you can say they are 'qualified' to that PQR. But, THAT did not make them a qualified welder to the requirements of D1.1 Clause 4 as the downloadable sample forms state in some paraphrased version of that down at the bottom where the signatures go.

I don't know if I have done a respectable job of describing this or not, the bottom line is that there is a difference between the welders being qualified to D1.1 Clause 4 or being qualified to a PQR or being qualified to API 1104 or ASME or....etc. One does not mean another. There are different parameters and requirements and that's why there is NOT a one cert fits all.

As I see it, you can qualify your welder to your WPS from your PQR but, they won't be D1.1 qualified. And, even then there are ways that are better than others of accomplishing that. I say, one up, one down, good to go. Only a combo, don't think so. As I stated earlier, that makes it difficult to know if one was good and the other bad. How much was up and how much down? But, if they can pass a test all up and one all down, then the combo is not a problem.

All depends upon what you mean by 'qualify', what you want to accomplish, how the customer and their engineer sees it, and if you want D1.1 qualified welders.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By Superflux (****)

Date 03-28-2015 00:54

Seem rather odd that a WPS would allow welders to "pick and choose" when and where the up and down hill progressions can/could be used.
The only time I've seen this was with a 6010 down on root and hot with 7018 fill and cap on a 6G pipe test.
Now if one were to have 2 sets of tests with one being made in the up progression and a second battery of tests on the down hill, then all bases could covered.

By 803056

Date 03-28-2015 14:58 Edited 03-29-2015 20:10

While not AWS D1.1 specific, ASME has said no to the question of allowing a welder to weld half the pipe using vertical uphill progression and downhill progression of the remaining half. ASME requires the contactor to record the thickness deposited with each variable, i.e., process or F number.

I believe the same logic applies to AWS. Consider testing the welder on pipe in the 6G position to qualify him for all positions; the code requires guided bend specimens removed from the 2:00, 4:00, 8:00, and 10:00 O'clock positions. That cannot be accomplished if half the coupon is welded uphill and the remaining half welded using downhill progression. Unlike ASME, AWS makes no provisions to record the depth (thickness) of weld deposited with each process or F number. In this case, there are no provisions for recording the thickness of each weld deposited with a combination of uphill or downhill progression. For example, there are no provisions for the contractor to deposit the open root with 6010 and the remainder with 7018. A WPS has to be qualified for each F number and then the WPS that combines the two PQRs to allow the combination.

As the Owner's Engineer, I would not permit both uphill and downhill progression on the same test coupon.

Once the WPS for downhill progression was qualified, both the qualified WPS (downhill) and the prequalified WPS (uphill) could be combined to meet the needs of production.

Granted, there are some creative minds out there, but the fly in their ointment is the knowledgeable owner and Engineer. Pow! another WPS and supporting PQR shot down in flames and exploding on impact. I would categorize this post right up there with the contractors that qualify their welders with backing, remove the backing, back weld, and claim their welders were qualified with or without backing.

Best regards - Al

By js55

Date 03-30-2015 14:06

Al,
I'm not sure why the prohibition against uphill and downhill in the same test coupon.

By 803056

Date 03-31-2015 02:32

It was an ASME interpretation I read a while back.

I don't have my code sections with me this week. However, I believe it was in one of the previous editions of Section IX containing past interpretations.

Best regards - Al

By FinishLine (*)

Date 04-01-2015 03:32

Thanks for advice guys, I had the welder rerun two vertical coupons one 100% uphill, one 100% downhill, both passed no problem.

What I learned from this thread:

just because the code doesn't specifically prohibit it, and my common sense approach allows it, doesn't mean it will work in all cases. I could get a guy higher on the food chain, like customers representative, that can interpret the rules different. So, if time allows, build your weld procedures and welder qualifications robust, to limit headaches and job stops later down the road.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 04-01-2015 13:42

Good morning Erik,

I had a long post covering some additional 'opinion' on the application but elected to delete and just say I think you made the right move.

Just keep in mind, there is a major difference between production and qualification.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By CWI7611 (**)

Date 04-05-2015 01:45

Does it matter how many passes you make uphill and how many passes you make down hill? Is it called out in the procedure? Can you make and successfully qualify a procedure with "x" number of passes uphill and "x" number of passes downhill? if you can and then get the welders to qualify that way and understand why they must weld in production in the same manner I don't see why you couldn't use a procedure in that way. Provided of course you could get the Owner or Engineer to accept it.

I have seen welds made with a GMAW uphill then SMAW LoHy uphill then finished with SAW which is downhill or flat if you prefer since all the weld metal is deposited near the top with a slight lead downhill.