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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Why does millers RMD need extra grounds?
- - By PlasmaHead2 (***) Date 04-30-2015 02:46
So we are building a few robot welders at work, they are using millers auto axcess 300 with it running in RMD mode to weld up 16 gauge (maybe a little thicker) stainless boxes.
The customer mentioned something about the machine needing to be isolated from any earth ground and that it needed extra ground wires, something about the power supply reading the sine wave of the arc and predicting what it was going to do.
I watched it run a few passes and could see the machine adjusting the arc to what the part was doing. It even managed to get something that resembled a complete weld on one side of the box with a seam alignment error. It slowed the WFS down and ended up with that hissing arc and a big ball off the end of the wire that made a little snap noise as it transferred to the part... but it did it consistently down the seam.
One of our engineers mentioned that they might have to have 2  welds running at the same time. What would happen if you had 2 machines welding on 1 part at the same time with the RMD process?
Are they going to interfere with each other due to what ever requires them to be isolated?
-Clif
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 04-30-2015 11:19
Modern GMAWP, especially the higher level units are using an "adaptive feedback" system... One that senses what is happening at the arc.  It obtains feedback thousands of times per second.  The best way for the power supply to get this information is to place a secondary "voltage sensing" lead (the thin wire) as close to the weld as it can be attached to the work or fixturing.

I don't know anything about "Isolating" the *ground* on the welding machine...  Really does that clamp go to the ground?   Hell no it doesn't.     It's nearly impossible to isolate a power supply from the building it's in... Try to strike an arc on a building column when you have your machine's *work lead* attached to a fixture that is anchored to the slab and see what you get.

Unless you have reviewed the actual Miller Operators Manual and it compels you to isolate the power supply, I think you are getting some junk advice.

The RMD is pretty good at doing what it is told to do.  While the adaptive feedback is very nice and fast and will help with slight discontinuities in fit-up, electrical stick-out and angle variance, it does not change the arc current or voltage unless it is told to do so... It's efforts are to keep that arc the same.
Parent - By PlasmaHead2 (***) Date 04-30-2015 23:48
Hey Lawrence,
I only got a quick fly by, they grabbed me on my way out to lunch and I ended up watching it run a pass and chatting for a few min. Im sure the info I obtained was far from complete.
Our engineer pointed out that the rest of the electrical systems on the unit were isolated from anything to do with the weld current, with big rubber pads and so forth.
So a rewording of the question would be; would voltage from motor control sources(or any other electrical system that wasnt the welder) interfere with RMD and is that why it had to be isolated?

Im well aware that concrete and the rest of the building are all "tied together" electrically... I plead the 5th on how...:roll::grin::eek:
Thanks
-Clif
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 04-30-2015 19:37
As Lawrence mentioned, the "extra ground" is a volt sensing lead that helps the power source compensate for changes in electrical stickout in order to maintain a stedy arc.
Miller Axcees systems, both manual and automatic use this technology. With manual welding, arc sensing lead use is optional, but with automatic robotic use, it's essential. The closer the lead is attached to the weld joint, the better it works. However, our robotic systems weld parts on rotating positioners, which makes attaching the lead directly to the part impractical. We've found that attaching the sensing lead to the grounding strip, just upstream of the positioner to be effective. It needs to be attached to a separate lug from the machine ground though.
While I've not tried it yet, I understand from Miller that using multiple machines on one part is OK, but I recommend appropriate R&D.
As for the work lead, attach it to the part or positioner. Do not ground through the building.
Miller has a very good support network. I recommend asking your local Rep to visit the site and assess the system set-up.

Tim
Parent - - By PlasmaHead2 (***) Date 05-01-2015 00:04
Tim,
We are the R&D stage so well get to find out first hand :grin:
The part is stationary and Ill pass along the info about getting the volt sensing wires as close as possible.
I was roped in on a fly-by so Im not sure how much ill get in on this project, but I am bugging the crap out of our engineer to let me play for a bit.

Another question of someone who has seen it hands on if I may...
How fast can RMD move And/Or Can it keep up with GMAW-S in terms of travel speed?
The pass I saw it run had some issues but they were Mostly of a positioning/work holding nature vs a welding machine error...
I say mostly because I have run GMAW-S at travel speeds that made the robot look like it was standing still....
Is that the nature of RMD or user input errors?

Thanks
-Clif
Parent - By TimGary (****) Date 05-01-2015 11:51
I haven't used the RMD robotically yet, but have qualified robotic 3mm fillets on 16 gage CS sheet with STT and .045 ER70S-3 at 40 IPM.

Ultimatete travel speed will be dependant on a lot of variables, like joint confuguration, wire dia, weld size and position.

Tim
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 04-30-2015 23:28
Clif,

Another possibility coming from an outside view without nearly enough facts,  many people don't know the difference when wiring up a building and especially welding and/or any shop equipment between a 'ground' and a 'neutral'.  There are a good many applications where both are needed. 

You can go around and around about them being the same, and yet, different but the bottom line is they are different and serve different functions when it comes to our equipment and safety as well as operating parameters. 

Because of the electronics and sensors involved with this particular process you may well need both and that is the 'isolating' that is being talked about.  Not grounds/work leads to the work itself but how the equipment is wired.

Just my two tin pennies worth.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By PlasmaHead2 (***) Date 05-01-2015 00:11
Hey Brent,
I think you nailed it....
I'm now wondering if the isolation was to keep voltages from the motors and circuts running the rest of the robot from messing with the volt sensing stuff....
Like say the control circuit telling a servo motor to go left hits some weird resonance with the volt sensing lead and it causes massive and abrupt errors in weld control.... fun things like that.:eek::lol:
Thanks
Clif
Parent - By Metarinka (****) Date 05-20-2015 22:19
just wanted to chime in, When you are running any type of high frequency modulated wave form (like you are with modern GMAW-P) the requirements for good clean power are much more critical. The "extra ground" as everyone mentioned is probably a voltage or arc sensing feedback loop but 90% of the ones I have seen are just integrated into the welding torch.

Alternatively we have had issues with AVC and weld data loggers if you don't have a good true clean ground, thinks like high frequency start, flourescent light ballasts or other equipment can make your incoming power lines somewhat noisey and we have had issues where an AVC system wouldn't work properly until we ran a new true earth line directly drilled into the ground, as the existing ground was getting noise from some other piece of equipment.
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Why does millers RMD need extra grounds?

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