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Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / Need verification about groups and p-numbers
- - By PFI (**) Date 06-15-2015 00:04
Concerning ASME section 9 (and this could apply to AWS codes too) As i understand it when a PQR is done and the 2 materials are in the same group (ie. Group 1 / p-8) qualification also includes all other "P-numbers" in that group? so If you qualify P-8 to P-8 it would also include all the other p numbers in group 1
Parent - - By jon20013 (*****) Date 06-15-2015 01:51
If working with ASME IX then yes, all P-8 materials would be included (generally speaking).  AWS does not use P-Numbers to my knowledge but instead M-Numbers?  I might be wrong though because its been a while since working with AWS on a regular basis.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 06-15-2015 03:39
Hey,  nice to see you!
Parent - By jon20013 (*****) Date 06-15-2015 05:00
:grin: Nice to be here! :lol:
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 06-15-2015 23:17
Hello Jon, and welcome back, hope you can and will be back more often.

As to the 'M'-numbers:  D1.1:2010 does not actually use the M-numbers.

When filling out your WPS to be qualified to Clause 4 PQR's you can use the ASTM #'s, A-36, A-572, etc.  Same for a pre-qualified WPS from Clause 3.  But, you can also, depending upon the application of the WPS and/or PQR, use the Group numbers from Table 3.1.  For reference see 4.8.3 and Table 4.5 (29), Table 4.6 (CVN's), and Table 4.8 for Group number groupings qualified by a PQR.

So to qualify any steel within a group is to qualify across the boundaries of the Table.

But, that would be a different story when qualifying a particular steel not on Table 3.1.  It makes a difference if you are qualifying a material for special use/application or are qualifying something else about the procedure not normally allowed as a pre-qualified WPS.  Things like joint configuration, vertical down progression welding, etc. 

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By PFI (**) Date 06-16-2015 01:52
Jon,

Ok, so all P8's would qualify no matter what group they are in? If the material tested was in the same group (group 1 for example) would you also qualify for all material (P#'s) in that group?

So for example ..... SA36 to SA36 (both in group 1 and both P1)  this would qualify all of the P#'s in group 1 AND all of P1 in all other groups??
Parent - By jon20013 (*****) Date 06-16-2015 23:09
Fred, it would be most useful if you could state which welding process is involved as QW-25X has different rules for different processes but in very general terms if you qualify on a P8 the n all P8 is qualified for the WPS (impact rules may apply) and if one qualifies the welder than a whole range is qualified, not just P8's but also P1's - P11, P4X series, etc.,  ASME is much, much friendlier than AWS in this regard. :grin::grin:
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-16-2015 02:39 Edited 06-16-2015 02:41
When working with ASME Section IX, P numbers are families of base metals with similar weldability. In the case of carbon steels and high strength steels, the carbon equivalency falls with a range that ensure the materials have good weldability.

The group number is a subdivision of the base metals within the P number family. The group number is used or applies when the WPS is qualified and notch toughness requirements are imposed by the construction code.

With a standard WPS, one where notch toughness is not a requirement, qualifying a P1 joined to a P1 base metal qualifies the WPS all the base metal specifications included in that P number.

When the WPS is qualified and it includes notch toughness, not only must one consider the P number, but one must also consider the group number. So, if the WPS is qualified by welding a P1, Grp. 1 to a P1, Grp 1 base metal, the WPS is valid for any P1, Grp 1 base metals welded to any other P1, Grp 1 base metal. In essence, when notch toughness is required, the range of base metals qualified is more restrictive.

Keep in mind that the provisions of Section IX can be and often are modified by the construction code, i.e., Section I, Section VIII, B31.3, etc. An example to consider is when the construction code is B31.3 Process Piping and the fluid service is specified as High Pressure. In that case, the range of base metals qualified is very restricted. In that case, the WPS is only qualified for the material specification used and recorded on the PQR. While SA-106 is carbon manganese steel pipe and is classified as a P1 Grp 1, the procedure is only qualified for SA-106 welded to SA-106. As I said, the construction code is very restrictive.

AWS B2.1 uses M numbers in place of P numbers. Generally, the P1 materials are included in the family M1 in B2.1. However, the base metal specifications included the family M1 is more extensive than the base metal specifications included in the family P1.

In NAVSEA S9074-AQ-GIB-010/248, the base metals are grouped by S numbers. In many respects, the S1 family is very similar to P1 and M1 base metals, i.e., carbon and high strength low alloy steels, except the S1 are base metals approved for use in Naval vessels and include materials that meet military standards.

Jon, it is so good to see you back in the fray.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By PFI (**) Date 06-16-2015 16:52
Jon,

Ok, so If I understand this correctly (And I hope I do!) Without notch toughness, If a WPS specified SA36 to SA36 (P1 to P1 both in group one) qualification would include all P1's in all groups, correct? but not all P#'s within the "group 1"

Thanks in advance for your expertise!
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-17-2015 03:01 Edited 06-17-2015 23:33
If SA36 to SA36 is recorded on the PQR, the WPS is qualified for all P1 to P1 base metals. If notch toughness is a requirement (per the construction code, i.e., Section Vii for example), SA36 would be a P1 Group 1 base metal, so the PQR would list:

Specification: SA36 to SA36
P Number:     P1 Group 1 to P1 Group 1

The WPS would only be qualified for P1 Group 1 welded to P1 Group 1 base metals when notch toughness requirements are invoked.

WPSs that include notch toughness requirements are more restrictive (limited) with regards to the base metal specifications for which it is qualified.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By PFI (**) Date 06-17-2015 15:45
Ok, Super!! I completely understand!  Thank you so much Al
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-17-2015 23:34
I edited my previous reply to make it easier to read and understand.

Glad to help - Al
Parent - - By PFI (**) Date 06-18-2015 12:42
AL,

please take a look at the attached image, it show the exact condition we have been discussing, and in the qualification range it shows qualified to numerous p numbers?
Attachment: welder1.jpg (135k)
Parent - - By PFI (**) Date 06-19-2015 00:12
aL,

Disregard my last post, this clears that up

QW 423.1 says clearly that "ALL COMBINATION OF BASE METALS" .
It means If you qualified with P.No.1 then the welder qualified to weld all combination of base metals of P- or S-No. 1 through P- or S- No. 11, P- or S-No. 34,and P- or S-No. 41 through P- or S-No. 49.
ALL Combination means either P1 to P1 or P1 to other P numbers as specified.
So he can weld P1 to P1 as well as P1 to P8 etc.
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-19-2015 00:29
The welder yes, the procedure no. So it would appear your on the right track.

Al
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 06-19-2015 03:36
This went from procedures to welder qualifications, I'm confused.:confused:
Parent - By dick (**) Date 06-19-2015 04:17
I was hoping that I wasn't the only one:  :confused:
Parent - - By youngcwi (*) Date 09-14-2015 12:04 Edited 09-15-2015 12:07
Hal,

What if you have a base metal that does not have a P-number and one that does have one? Like a572 to a106, is there something in sec IX for this?
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-14-2015 21:37
Your WPS is only qualified for the material specifications that were used for the PQR.

Al
Parent - - By youngcwi (*) Date 09-15-2015 12:03
yes I understand that. What I'm trying to find out is if I'm to join a material to another material that doesn't have a P number what do I do, or where do I look? I'm still trying to figure out how the process of finding what filler metals to use with base metal combo's because I was never taught this. I was trying to find the P number for the material 4140 but couldn't find it. I'm guessing because it's AISI\SAE spec's.
Parent - - By In Tension (**) Date 09-15-2015 21:47
Knowing the P-Number won't necessarily help you specify what filler metal should be used.  Section IX, in general, will not specify filler metal but will rather specify how to qualify the procedure once the filler metal is selected.  This selection process is the purview of a qualified Engineer with knowledge of the chemical/mechanical properties desired from the weldment, based on service expectations.   
Once the proper filler metal is selected have a look at QW-424 of Section IX.  The table will outline the allowable range of your base metals according to P-Number (or lack thereof).  Any material combination outside that listed in your applicable column/row in QW-424 will require requalification. 
Unassigned base metals are a total pain but are a fact of life.  You can try cross-referencing your UNS numbers with Table QW-422 but it never seems to help.  Good luck.
Parent - By youngcwi (*) Date 09-16-2015 11:25
thanks bud
Up Topic American Welding Society Services / Certifications / Need verification about groups and p-numbers

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