distance from weld for inspection

By CWI555

Date 08-04-2015 17:39

Unless there is something new in D1.1 2015, it isn't there. 24" and 30 degrees is an ASME spec.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 08-04-2015 23:35

Jonathan,

WELCOME TO THE AWS WELDING FORUM!!

You won't find anything in D1.1 or any of the AWS codes for that matter.

What you will find it in ASNT for VT. The distinction is between direct and indirect inspections and then moves to remote inspections using borescopes and cameras and such.

For Direct inspections I believe it is within 18". There are items of training having to do with the eye, cones, rods, and lighting and how the eye sees contrasts which is where a light with about 100 lumens comes into play.

But, none of this is in D1.1. It only states something along the lines of 'adequate lighting'. I'll try to look it up and give you the exact quote and location.

Now, my curiosity is really getting the better of me so, is there a problem? Why do you ask?

No, it is not appropriate to view welds from the floor that are several feet above you. I have seen many do that. If all you want to do is document that there are indeed welds there then MAYBE. But really, can you see undercut and say it is an item that needs repair when you can't even reach it with a V-Wac gauge? Or any other discontinuity?

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day, Brent

By thirdeye (***)

Date 08-05-2015 01:10

So, the correct way to categorize that $1200 spotting scope I bought a couple of years ago would have been to call it a "remote visual inspection tool"?

By 46.00

Date 08-05-2015 08:49

There is however a requirement for eye testing that states: Inspectors shall have passed an eye examination with
or without corrective lenses to prove near vision acuity of Jaeger J-2 at a distance of 12 in–17 in [300 mm–430 mm].

By CWI555

Date 08-05-2015 11:37

Brent,

ASNT doesn't specify visual distance.

ASME V Article 9 has for a long time. Example 2007;

T-952 Direct Visual Examination

Direct visual examination 'may' usually be made when access is sufficient to place the eye within 24 in. (600mm) of the surface to be examined and at an angle not less than 30 deg to the surface to be examined.

100 fc/1000 lux minimum on the surface to be examined is required.

Most procedures turn that may in the first sentence into shall to avoid any crap from third parties. I personally believe that to be audit bait. With some of the testicular cranial inhibited role playing third parties out there using calibrated eyes to measure off 24", an inspector would have to have a micro certified tape measurer/protractor combo riveted to their safety glasses to live up to that language if it was carried out to its ultimate insanity (which I've witnessed).

Code says 'may' for that part, not shall.

Where inspectors get themselves in a ringer on ASME work is where they get into 'remote' work. For the same year code;
T-953 "such systems shall have a resolution capability at least equivalent to that obtainable by direct visual observation" in reference to cameras, fiber optics etc. That is where T-952 first paragraph is invoked as a requirement and not a suggestion.

The obvious angle a TPI/auditor will likely take is "how do you know it's equivalent?"
For that angle, it's wise to have a demonstration on tap where you have proofed it.

My .02

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 08-05-2015 14:21

I'm sorry. I re-read my post and I had not intended for it to infer that the provision in question was 'mandatory' such as in a must or shall category. I was only drawing the distinction that ASNT does indeed make between direct and indirect inspection observations. And with none of my books handy I did state 'I believed' it was 18". I could easily have been off on that. Would have to go back through books and my notes from my class for VT.

Yes, most of ASNT has 100 lumen for all procedures- VT, MT, but D1.1 makes no specific light requirements.

The point being made in answer to the OP is still that D1.1 makes absolutely no light nor distance requirements for visual examination.

Not sure why the question was asked and there are many possible scenarios but it is still not a requirement of that code.

Brent

By 46.00

Date 08-05-2015 20:33

Are you all sure about ASNT? And D1.1 come to think about it.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 08-06-2015 04:18

Glyn,

Being in OR I am at a distinct disadvantage. Could you share what you are thinking?

D1.1 Clause 6.5.3 says VT for cracks is to be aided by a strong light, magnifiers, and any other device deemed necessary to assure soundness. No definition of 'strong'. That I am aware of. Not in all my research and use of D1.1.

ASNT. Can't say for sure without any references here and I can't find any on my computer so they must all be hard copy at the office. But my memory says 100 lumen and for direct inspections somewhere in a fairly close distance.

Brent

By 46.00

Date 08-06-2015 05:15

I like to make people think!

Given that AWS D1.1 has a visual eye sight requirement, it is easy to think that this is the set on the optimum visual inspection conditions? If you cant see J-2 at 12-17 inches then you cannot inspect? Therefore, Visual inspections should be carried out in that range?

6.1.4.4 Eye Examination. Inspectors and Assistant
Inspectors shall have passed an eye examination with
or without corrective lenses to prove near vision acuity of
Jaeger J-2 at a distance of 12 in–17 in [300 mm–430 mm].
Eye examination of all inspection personnel shall be
required every three years or less if necessary to demonstrate adequacy.

As regards ASNT, I dont have that spec to hand but I do have a set of practice questions for that spec and one of them is quite relavent:

102. Direct visual examination is possible when the eye can be placed within:

a. 305 mm (12 in.) of the inspection surface.
b. 381 mm (15 in.) of the inspection surface.
c. 610 mm (24 in.) of the inspection surface.
d. 762 mm (30 in.) of the inspection surface.

Therefore I must conclude that distance from weldment for visual examination is mentioned somewhere in that code? BTW does anyone know the answer?

By dick

Date 08-06-2015 05:55 Edited 08-06-2015 06:16

By CWI555

Date 08-06-2015 10:09

SNT-TC-1A Is not a code. It is often invoked by various codes, but TC1A is a 'Recommended Practice' and has been all the way back to 1966.
No edition of this recommended practice ever defined direct vs remote. It has always been the referencing code that does that. D1.1 going back to its inception via D1.0 into its split into D1.1/D1.5 didn't define it either.

Where you will see 24" distance invoked is within ASME code. In fact, the earliest version of ASME Section V I have at my disposal is 1974 edition. The 24" 30 deg statement was found in it as well. In fact, that long ago they also called out J1 and 32.5FC (350 LUX).

Prior to that year, it was a mess. Codes such as ASME III and ASME VIII were all over the charts. Some reference Section V, some ANSI, some had their own NDE/visual criteria written in.

However, no where is there a statement that either infers or delineates that examination take place at the same distance as the visual acuity test distance. Not N45, AWS, ASME, API, ASNT, or any other I am aware of.

If you have something that says otherwise, I'd be most interested in seeing it as I will be owing a few TPI/AI/ANI and one regulator an apology.

From a common sense (cold chills) stand point, I would counter that if you cannot pass the J2, should you be inspecting at all from an ethical standpoint if nothing else?

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 08-06-2015 13:49

Gerald,

I have to disagree but cannot give the documentation at the moment being out of state on 'vacation'.

It is NOT SNT-TC-1A that we are referencing. It is the individual materials that are to be studied and tested to in order to be Certified to either VT, MT, UT etc of the ASNT disciplines.

When you take the courses of study on line or from a level III, read the required materials, and then test for those you will be taught and tested for this information.

That distance is in the VT classes which I took a couple of years ago so am not positive of the answer though I believe the one for Glyn's question is c-24" though without the multiple choice answers being there I had thought it was 18".

I don't remember it even being mentioned in the MT classes but it would be difficult to accomplish MT beyond what you could reach with your arms extended in front of you to hold the yoke and powder puffer, so, a couple of feet.

And it has often been stated by others on this forum just as Glyn's post theorized that with the eye exam requirements one would think that direct observation/inspection would be accomplished within that same range. But there is no D1.1 or any AWS code as far as I can recollect that makes this definitive.

The angle of inspection is not as 'mandated' as the distance though the reasons for 30° being ideal are gone over with much discussion about the eye and reflected light. Again, mainly in VT but mentioned in MT classes I took as well.

So, in a way you are still correct, it is possibly not PART of an ASNT code. But it most certainly is part of what is taught to get certified for VT to ASNT standards. Few people get this. Most get the reciprocity cert when they get their CWI. Not the same. Take the class. You'll learn a lot.

Brent

By CWI555

Date 08-06-2015 15:35

We will have to agree to disagree then.

"It is the individual materials that are to be studied and tested to in order to be Certified to either VT, MT, UT etc of the ASNT disciplines."

What is taught is dependent upon the organization. There can be no mandates in a recommended practice. Referencing codes, contracts, and employer programs can invoke all or none. When invoked, shoulds become shalls, so forth. What I know for sure is that it's not addressed in TC1A. Visual acuity is, which has changed over years. Some years it's been J1, some years it's been J2. That also applies to the training guidelines, number of questions, so forth.

From a historical perspective, the distance guidelines/requirements are given birth in ASME code early 70's late 60's. They in turn had taken it from earlier naval documents.

Technically, a structural shop who never uses ASME code would not need to include it in their training. However, most level III's (including myself) and companies include it anyway. Not including it is a short sighted approach in my opinion as it boxes in the tech, program, and company. Then there is the propensity for codes robbing snippets from one another which is a story in itself.

The angle is the same as the distance. 30° is invoked again within ASME code, but not AWS, nor ASNT SNT-TC -1A.

Bottom line is, while the point is mostly academic, knowing the difference between 'required' and 'recommended' is important. It would be bad news to stop work on a structural job as a TPI if that recommendation never made it to their program. Therein is where that fine line can be crossed inadvertently.

By welderbrent (*****)

Date 08-07-2015 03:18

I agree with your 'bottom line' 100%. And I am not trying to say it is a 'mandate' for ASNT and it definitely is not for AWS. But, it is in the two different programs I went through to get Level II VT though no where stated to be part of a 'code'. That doesn't mean it is not prudent to bring to the OP's attention when they are apparently being confronted with an issue and asking where the information comes from.

So, for sure, it does not come from D1.1. It does not come from any AWS code that I know of. It does not come from a CODE from ASNT, is only part of training to draw distinctions between various methods of inspections. It may come from ASME but sounds like that is somewhat vague and always changing.

So, if someone is telling them they have to be within a certain distance to perform visual inspections...make them prove it chapter and verse, or, Clause and sub-clause if you prefer. If, they are trying to tell someone they can't do inspections from a distance, good luck. But, if an inspector tried to make me repair a weld that they looked at from several feet away, go fish. I want your written report to have accurate measurements made by use of the proper gauges. Can't do that from much more than about 3' at most and truly verify the gauge was correctly used and measurements are accurate.

Thanks for the discussion. I don't think we really 'disagree' all that much. But it made for some good conversation and brought out several points for the OP's consideration.

Brent

By 46.00

Date 08-07-2015 23:09

I never stated that SNT-TC-1A was a code, you should pay attention to the details if you want to critic.

By CWI555

Date 08-08-2015 00:39

I responded based on this statement;
"Given that AWS D1.1 has a visual eye sight requirement, it is easy to think that this is the set on the optimum visual inspection conditions? If you cant see J-2 at 12-17 inches then you cannot inspect? Therefore, Visual inspections should be carried out in that range?"
and this one;
"As regards ASNT, I dont have that spec to hand but I do have a set of practice questions for that spec and one of them is quite relavent:

102. Direct visual examination is possible when the eye can be placed within:

a. 305 mm (12 in.) of the inspection surface.
b. 381 mm (15 in.) of the inspection surface.
c. 610 mm (24 in.) of the inspection surface.
d. 762 mm (30 in.) of the inspection surface.

Therefore I must conclude that distance from weldment for visual examination is mentioned somewhere in that code? BTW does anyone know the answer?"

Not sure how else to take that? Feel free to clarify

By Mwccwi

Date 08-15-2015 22:19

Interesting topic, I recently had taken the AWS online Pre-CWI Seminar and the training there provided the 24" at 30 degrees criterion. I have not not followed up, but I will look in the Welding Inspection Technologies book to see if it is in there, I do know that it is not specified in the D1.1.