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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Nickel Alloy PQR and WPS questions
- - By K_Mcnew (*) Date 09-01-2015 18:05
I have a job requiring us to weld UNS N06022 (Hastelloy C-22). We will be needing to use AWS A5.14 ERNiCrMo- 10 filler material. The joint design is a tube (1”OD X 1/16” wall thickness) and a threaded insert.  There will also be a 1/8” gap between the end of the tube and the shoulder of the insert for welding, also both base materials will be the same grade.  I’m still pretty new to PQR and WPS development at this point. I am having a hard time finding if any Nickel alloys fall under prequalified base metal and filler metals, or will I just have to start from sratch with developing a new PQR and moving on from there? Thank you for taking the time to rread this.

Kyle
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 09-01-2015 19:03
Can you post a pic of the assembly or a sketch?   Having a hard time visualizing that "gap"

Welcome to the forum K !

Can't speak to prequalification because you did not mention the governing standard.  But doubtful for D1.6 as it is not austenitic.
Parent - By kcd616 (***) Date 09-01-2015 21:48
Kyle,
start out slow and simple with things
filler metal goes with base metal, good start
now for some questions
welding process? gtaw gmaw saw, etc etc?
manual or robotic?
what is the tube shape? ie square, rectangle, round etc etc
1/8" gap for 1/16" thickness seems alot of gap to me:surprised::eek:
I think I have done what your describing here
but need way more info to help
sincerely,
Kent
- By 803056 (*****) Date 09-02-2015 00:02
First, what is the construction code?

From the little information provided, I assume it is ASME. If the assumption is correct, there would be no prequalified WPS when Section IX is invoked.

Al
- - By K_Mcnew (*) Date 09-02-2015 10:48 Edited 09-02-2015 10:51
Sorry guys I was alittle vague there. The code that we will be using D1.1 for a construction code. We will be welding with GMAW process .035" wire dia. manual. The tubing will be round 1" OD X .065 wall thickness, the welded insert will be solid 1" rd turned down to fit inside the tubing. I have attached a sketch of the joint design below.
Attachment: IMG_20432.jpg - This is the joint design, the only difference is there will be a 1/8" opening at the weld joint (120k)
Attachment: 23323.jpg - This is the detail of just the insert. (102k)
Parent - - By kcd616 (***) Date 09-02-2015 11:12
Kyle,
I have done similar
very doable
as far as pqr and wps
and code
will let the other guys answer
pqr and wps not my forte
sincerely,
Kent
Parent - By K_Mcnew (*) Date 09-02-2015 11:17
Thank you for the help Kent!
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 09-02-2015 11:46 Edited 09-02-2015 11:49
Ok that helps quite a bit.

1.  D1.1 would be a very difficult code for your work.  D1.1 covers plain carbon steels .125 and thicker.  It has zero PQR provisions for superalloys or thin wall tube.  And there is for sure no prequalified application here.

AWS B2.1 might be reasonable or Section IX or possibly AWS D17.1 as they all have provisions for multiple alloys.

Your drawing (thank you for posting it) shows a V-Groove placed on 1/16" wall thickness base metal and then a GMAW seal weld.  That looks like trouble to me as well for a couple of reasons.

Engineering level thoughts:   How many of these are you doing?   What design/load considerations mandate the V-groove and could an autogenously GTAW welded seal be an alternative?   Must this seal weld also be CJP?

GMAW could do it... But automation might be the way to go on a diameter that small if you must have MIG... That will be a very difficult manual GMAW weld even with a rotation device.

I also think a GMAW  V-groove is going to penetrate completely through the tube and require backing (inert or copper) to reduce the chance of oxidation of the melt-thru I think will be unavoidable.  This is another reason to maybe consider GTAW and an autogenous partial penetration square groove seal weld.
Parent - - By K_Mcnew (*) Date 09-02-2015 12:17
Thank you Lawrence very helpful. We have done a similiar application of this design in the past (i.e. early 2000's) with a nickel alloy(C-276) before I worked here. We have around 1,000 parts to weld and it will be welded by manual GMAW in a welding rotator(positioner) working with the equipment we have on hand. we are putting the 1/8" gap between the shoulder of the insert and the edge of the tube for pentration and to reduce excessive reinforcment. With the 1/8" insert shoulder and the 1/8" square groove joint design opening (which has been ok'd with the customer to use a square groove verus a V groove as shown) we will still have 1/4" of the insert still inside past the edge of the tube, the insert is made from solid 1" rd so I dont for see us burning through that material with approiate travel speeds and welding parameters.
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 09-02-2015 15:00
First, you need to define which code or spec you're required to work with. This is often spelled out in the contract documents.
If it's up to you, or if you have any input, I would recommend AWS B2.1.
Reasons why are:

This material is listed in B2.1 (ASTM B574, M#43)
This gives a PQR qualification options of Simulated Service Test Weldments and Prototype Structure Test Weldments (see 4.3.7)
Also gives the option to qualify the Welders through a workmanship test (see 5.3)

The above atypical qualification methods would narrow the quals to that part only, but would greatly simplify the process.
You just need to put all the specifics together first, document them in a referencing document, and get signoffs from the Engineer and Customer (if applicable).

Tim
Parent - - By K_Mcnew (*) Date 09-02-2015 16:48 Edited 09-02-2015 16:51
Tim,

Which supplment are you referrring to with (see 4.3.7) and (see 5.3)?  im not seeing these clauses in AWS B2.1 or AWS D1.1
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 09-02-2015 17:14
AWS B2.1:2009 Specification for Welding Procedure and Performance Qualification
...should have stated that in my original post...

I don't have the current 2014 version yet, but I'd be surprised to learn the same provisions have not been carried over, probably under a different reference number.

Tim
Parent - - By K_Mcnew (*) Date 09-02-2015 17:36
Yea all I am seeing is base material groupings and tables, no clauses  with further information.....
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 09-02-2015 20:50
???
Are you looking at the B2.1/B2.1M-BMG:2014 BASE METAL GROUPING FOR WELDING PROCEDURE AND PERFORMANCE QUALIFICATION?

That probably only has base material groupings and tables, excluding the rest of the story...

Tim
Parent - - By K_Mcnew (*) Date 09-03-2015 09:49
Yes thats what im looking at (AWS B2.1/2.1M-BMG:2014) , which one are you referring to?
Parent - - By K_Mcnew (*) Date 09-03-2015 10:35
Nevermind i found what you were reffering to, why do they have the same edition designations outside of year?
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 09-03-2015 12:07
The difference is the "BMG" which stands for Base Metal Grouping.
Parent - By K_Mcnew (*) Date 09-03-2015 12:15
Thank you Tim
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-02-2015 12:33 Edited 09-02-2015 12:37
There are no prequalified WPS for nickel alloys or anything other than low carbon and high strength low alloy steels included in AWS D1.1, Table 3.1.

So, my comment that you would have to qualify the WPS still applies even if it isn't an ASME application.

I would lean toward GTAW on this project because of the thin wall thickness and small diameter.  

As for qualifying the WPS, I would lean toward AWS D1.1 for the method of qualifying the WPS provided the customer accepts the proposal. AWS D1.1 is more explicit with regards to the information that must be recorded on the PQR, NDT, and mechanical testing required to qualify the WPS. AWS D1.1 also provides a rational basis of determining reasonable ranges for the welding parameters based on the data collected while qualifying the WPS.

While there may be some disagreement, I would start the qualification process by qualifying fillet welds, both the largest single pass fillet weld and the smallest multiple pass weld to establish the usable ranges for voltage, amperage, and travel speed. Then verify the mechanical properties can be met and the welds meet soundness requirements by welding a CJP grooved test assembly.

As Lawrence pointed out, AWS D1.1 isn't intended for this type of application based on the base metal family or thickness, but the approach can be applied for many applications. My concern with qualifying the WPS using either AWS B2.1 or ASME Section IX is they do not provide a rational basis of determining the usable range for the welding parameters. AWS D1.1 offers a good approach for one that isn't intimate with welding or developing WPSs that are usable and welder friendly.

The other modification I would recommend is to adopt test thicknesses that are more in line with the thickness you will be welding. For example, use 1/8 inch thick samples for the single pass fillet weld, 1/4 inch thick samples for the multiple pass fillet weld, and 1/8 inch for the grooved test assembly. 

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By K_Mcnew (*) Date 09-02-2015 17:09
Thanks Al,

We will doing this as a GMAW welding process due to our equipment on hand. Also this is most likely a one time job with this material and procedure,so buying additional equipment is out of the question. We will also be qualifing the procedure to AWS D1.1. My next question with this joint design is would it be considered a PJP or a CJP?
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 09-02-2015 17:31
I would use a 3/16 opening to ensure CJP.

GMAW is going to be a tough one on 1 inch diameter pipe. Nickel is "gooey" to say very least. It doesn't wet into the groove face, nor does it penetrate to any depth. I've used GMAW on high nickel alloy and it wasn't any picnic.

How many parts are you going to weld? If the number is too small to justify purchasing GTAW equipment, consider subcontracting it to someone that is set up to weld with GTAW.

Al
Parent - - By fschweighardt (***) Date 09-02-2015 21:56 Edited 09-02-2015 22:03
However you do it, you will have a "custom" code, I think.  I'd consider b2.1 and "apply" d1.1 variable restrictions.
As far as process, I'd tig it, maybe try to get a cold wire feeder that hooks to a manual torch.  Do you have any GTAW power supplies?  Ni is so sluggish, I'd go with Al's suggestion on root opening.  GMAW will suck big time

I'd weld up a flat piece with the same joint design and check it out before I got too carried away
Parent - By K_Mcnew (*) Date 09-03-2015 10:53
We do not have a GTAW power supply nor do we a sizable enough quanity of parts for the job to justify buying any equipment for this type of material/job. I understand this will be a difficult joint design to weld with nickel alloy GMAW as of right I think thats what im going to have to do. We dont have the money in the job to subcontract it out either. Like i stated earlier we have welded similiar material and joint design and had decent success but that was before i was here.
- - By K_Mcnew (*) Date 09-03-2015 13:58
Well after dicussing concerns of GMAW welding process for this application, I finally got alittle room to start looking into GTAW for this job. I know "cold feed tig system" has been thrown around it sounds like a good way to go, does anyone have any more info on this system? I cant find anything on miller or lincolns sites about them. I did find a company called CK Worldwide that had a system. We do have a Miller XMT 300 CC/CV with a water cooler, HF system and wire feeder that has been stuck back in the corner for years I forgot about. Im trying to find info if i can retro fit it to use as a cold feed setup. Any info would be appreciated.
Attachment: XMT300.jpg (279k)
Attachment: HF-251D-1.jpg (286k)
Attachment: 24Vwirefeeder.jpg (227k)
Attachment: coldfeedsystem.png - This is the system I found online (289k)
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 09-03-2015 15:58
Parent - By fschweighardt (***) Date 09-05-2015 00:03
You can Idaho engineer that feeder to push wire into a tig puddle, but you may get a lot of wire whipping around as it comes out of the tip, as you don't have anyplace to put a straightener.  The power supply should work fine, and you can run a water cooled machine torch.  You should be able to rig that hf box to give you a hf start.  Gonna want a torch holder capable of some adjustment if possible. Lotty of Jerry rigging, but it MIGHT work.  Positioner will take some fooling with as you probably want a delay to establish the puddle before it starts to turn.  Watch out for wire sticking in the puddle when you terminate the weld
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Nickel Alloy PQR and WPS questions

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