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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Seeking opinions on WPS for AISI 4340
- - By WeldinFool (**) Date 11-13-2015 19:51
I would greatly appreciate your opinions/insight/suggestions regarding the following: (will provide free shop tour and donuts for all that take the time to read this post!)

We occasionally (like 6 parts per year or less) manufacture a part that requires welding an AISI 4340 shaft to an ASTM A572 Grade 50 plate. The last time these were made at our facility was before I began working here. These parts "snuck up on me"; I recently discovered they were being prepared for welding, and we do not have a WPS for this 4340 material. Now, before we go any further, let me clarify the function of the weld between these parts:

--The 4340 shaft is machined to a diameter of 1.50" with a tolerance of +-.002". It is then inserted into a hole that is machined through a 3/4" thick, A572 plate. This hole is also machined to 1.50", with a tolerance of +-.026". This is an "interference fit" which requires heating of the 3/4" plate in order to get the shaft inserted through the hole, which then protrudes 1/4" past the back of the plate. This is where the connection of the two parts gets its strength. In order to keep this shaft from ever moving or rotating, they then require a 1/4" fillet weld (see attached pic) around the shaft where it protrudes out the back of the plate.

--Our Engineers (Mechanical, Civil, and Electrical, we do not have a Welding Engineer on staff) have specified on the drawing that the parts should be pre-heated to 250 F before welding, and then welded with E11018 using the SMAW process (this is the only part we ever use this process and electrode for). There is no requirement for PWHT or stress relieving of any kind, no instructions for slow-cooling, nothing.

--Our Engineers do not consider this weld to be critical, it is merely a way to "retain" the shaft in its position in the 3/4" plate, and I get the feeling they think I am worrying about nothing when I questioned their preheat, and lack of post-heat, requirements. Additionally, they claim they've had zero issues with these parts in the past. Not once has one come back with cracked retainer welds. So, here are my questions:

1--Do I worry about creating a WPS (which would have to be qualified by testing) for such a non-consequential weld that is performed maybe 6 times per year?
2--If I do create and qualify a WPS, what code do I use? Note: there is actually another weld that is performed on this 3/4" plate earlier in the manufacturing process. It is on standard AWS recognized materials and is done per AWS D1.1 (yes, we do have a WPS for this)
3--If I do run a test weld to take to the lab, where would I find AISI 4340 material in plate form? Other options? Am I missing something?
4--Do you agree with the pre-heat and post-weld cooling methods? What about the use of E11018?
Attachment: 4340shaft-weldtoPl..JPG (8k)
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 11-13-2015 19:56
Okay, I took the time to read it twice, but, I only expect one tour with donuts.  Thanks. 

Brent
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 11-13-2015 19:58
I'll read it again if you will provide transportation to the shop!
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 11-13-2015 20:09
Okay Brad,

Looking over your company website I do have one quick question: Is there any chance this involves the public safety in anyway?

A comment: I would definitely like a shop tour sometime.

Now, before I am going to be completely comfortable with answering with my two tin pennies worth I need to check a couple of things out and head for my night job.  I'll be back in a couple of hours with my opinion.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By fschweighardt (***) Date 11-13-2015 20:59
Start by getting EOR to approve the use of D1.1 to cover the 4340 (the min UTS is in excess of 100ksi and not in the table of listed metals.)  Table 4.8 and PP-4.8.3 start you down the path of qual by welding.

Probably just do a fillet qualification IAW Clause 4, and maybe use Fig 4.20, all you do is macros.

All of the above is AWS D1.1:2010 reference
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 11-14-2015 00:11 Edited 11-14-2015 00:14
Follow this link and read the article from 'The Fabricator':

http://www.thefabricator.com/article/consumables/welding-heat-treatable-steels

For those who want a fast read here are the two important paragraphs:

"If the welded component will be used in the as-welded or stress-relieved condition, select a low-hydrogen-type electrode with a tensile strength of about 110,000 PSI. In some cases, a specification will allow or require a lower-strength filler material. On single-pass fillet welds, tests have shown that diluting the weld and base material will produce an adequate strength. When a higher-strength part is welded to a lower-strength carbon steel, the filler metal should be a low-hydrogen type that matches the lower-strength material.

To prevent major welding problems when welding heat-treatable steel, you must use proper preheat and interpass temperatures to eliminate or reduce cracking. Cracks can occur in the HAZ of the material or possibly the centerline in the weld deposit. The proper preheat and interpass temperature is usually 400 to 600 degrees F for heat-treatable steels."

Notice particularly the preheat temps compared to your current ones.  Also notice the electrode selection advice.  110k may work but when welding to the lower strength A572-50 you would possibly be better served with a 70k. 

Now, having added these thoughts for your consideration it is important to remember a couple of things:

1) My question about public safety issues.  If so you may want to consider your thoughts about a PQR with all the testing and development of a proper WPS very seriously. 
2) The current system has been working without incidence.  BUT, what types of legal liabilities are involved that may indicate a change BEFORE problems arise.
3) None of us knows exactly what this part is for, stresses involved, etc.  This is only an opinion based upon limited information and no picture other than that in my mind from your description. 
4) These steels get welded all the time.  This is not rocket science.  There are some cautions already being taken.  Just not as prescribed by others. 

Does it demand a WPS.  It may well be wise to have one if only for the purpose of giving written direction for the work to future welders and supervisors.  Even if you don't do the full PQR, to have some guidance in place that has been well researched and backed by science and experience is prudent at all times.  Instead of using the normal WPS heading, you may want to title it something like: Company Welding Procedure for Such and Such Component. 

Remember: Safety, Liability, Liability, Safety, followed by production.

Oh, and if you have some reading time: Google 'welding procedure for 4340 steel'.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent

edit: I see your picture is there now.  Kinda like I expected.
Parent - By WeldinFool (**) Date 11-16-2015 19:25
Excellent advice, as always! Thank you, thank you, thank you! You guys always put things in the proper perspective, and make it seem almost easy...

We will be performing some fillet weld samples right away, welding the 4340 to A572, one set using the  E11018, and another using E7018, then will cut them up and do macros and PT, along with maybe some other playing around just for fun. I think (hope...) this will be a learning experience for our Engineers as well as the Quality and Production personnel. I will follow up on this thread when we have some results, just for posterity...

Thanks again, and the offer of donuts and a shop tour is for real. We have hosted our local AWS chapter's monthly "meet and greet" here on occasion, and also have people from local schools and technical programs tour our shop several times per year. Come on over!
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 11-14-2015 03:27
I like the idea of undermatching the filler metal and I like the idea of using higher preheat.

The idea of running a few fillet weld samples would be the least testing I would do. Use the materials you use for production. Weld the samples replicating the joints used for production. Allow the welds to sit for a couple of days and then cut them and prepare them for macroetchs. Use fluorescent penetrant to check for underbead cracking. The macroetch and fluorescent penetrant testing should determine if there is cause for concern with underbead cracking. You can also have a could of cross sections tested for hardness using a microhardness test to determine whether or not you are developing martensite in the HAZ.

Al
Parent - By In Tension (**) Date 11-14-2015 14:54 Edited 11-14-2015 15:05
I have seen these materials welded with repeatable success but the possibility of cracking is real.  When selecting an electrode for this joint in particular I would consider the amount of 4340 dilution you will experience when putting a 6mm single pass on a 6.6mm joint.  I second the recommendation for qualifying with a mock-up, undermatching the 4340, and hardness survey... spot on, in my opinion.  As the Quality Manager I would insist on some peace of mind regardless of what the other departments think.  That's why Quality is separate... checks and balances.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Seeking opinions on WPS for AISI 4340

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