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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Plated or anodized flanges
- - By Paladin (***) Date 11-23-2015 22:45
I often build regulator and custom meter stations for the local gas company.
The next project is a regulator for a city gate (gas company gets gas from pipeline company).

The person in charge of design sent word that some of the 4inch flanges had some type of plating or "coating" other than the usual green or black paint. They are a shiny gold.

I have only seen a picture so far but it looks like it is maybe anodized to me.

My concerns are, will grinding be sufficient to make the fumes less toxic? Even the normal paint that gets heated up next to the weld is bad enough.

Would this plating cause the procedure to change, negating the procedure I have for this company?

When or what would these plated fitting used?

The gas company is looking into it too.

Thought I would borrow from some of the knowledge here also.

Thanks,
Floyd
Attachment: IMG_5638.JPG (154k)
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 11-23-2015 23:11
Wow Floyd,

I know I am no where near the level of piping experience that many on this forum have but I do weld several hundred flanges to tees and reducers per year in a specialized project we do here at the shop.  3" and 4".  Never have I seen any with that type of coating.  Always either black or green unless our customer has 'cleaned' them for us, LOL at that prospect. 

I would agree that 'IT LOOKS' like anodizing.  But, from a picture that is hard to state with certainty. 

Anodizing is normally not very 'deep' and should be easy to remove with a wire wheel on the grinder, hand held or a bench style.  Maybe a flapper wheel would do better though. 

I would not THINK it would be cause to alter the WPS, but I could be gravely mistaken.

Just my two tin pennies worth.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 11-24-2015 00:27
I know they anodize aluminum, but I haven't heard of it used on steel. Anodized aluminum has been treated with acid to produce an oxidized layer that is more resistant to further oxidation. My experience has been with aluminum destined for exposure to sea water or around salt water. It can also be used to color the aluminum for architectural purposes. As Brent noted, the aluminum anodize can be removed rather easily with a stiff brush.

Anodized steel? Nothing I've encountered. It could be discoloration on the surface of machined steel that has been subjected to temperatures around 400 to 450 degrees F. In other words, possibly temper color from the surface oxide associated with tempering. The temper color should be easily removed by wire brushing.

Taking a second look at the photos, they look like they have been coated with a preservative oil.

Let us know if you turn up anything.

Best regards - Al
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 11-24-2015 00:18
I'm with Brent here, WOW, I am wondering if these haven't been sprayed with some sort of "clear" varnish/lacquer to help with the prevention of rust. Whatever it is Floyd, do your homework and figure out how "toxic" this coating might be when combined with an arc/heat. You would think that whoever manufactured these would do so with welding in mind and thus allow for that relative to how they have "treated" them, but you never know. Best regards, Allan
Parent - By Len Andersen (***) Date 11-24-2015 16:40
Point by point,
I often build regulator and custom meter stations for the local gas company.
The next project is a regulator for a city gate (gas company gets gas from pipeline company).

[Got NYC inspection work with such

The person in charge of design sent word that some of the 4inch flanges had some type of plating or "coating" other than the usual green or black paint. They are a shiny gold.

Never seen such

I have only seen a picture so far but it looks like it is maybe anodized to me.

Might be shipping paper etc. that says the supplier or manufacturer. Call them and ask.

My concerns are, will grinding be sufficient to make the fumes less toxic? Even the normal paint that gets heated up next to the weld is bad enough.

Tasty and had diet of ! My guess is the utility that is your customer is OSHA compliant and can answer your questions. A local section of the American Welding Society might have there people attending answering the question informally.

Would this plating cause the procedure to change, negating the procedure I have for this company?

API and/or ASME call for removal of "contaminates" therefore it is a mute question. Hit it with a buff wheel might be a good idea. Half a second and "gold" gone you are off and running.

When or what would these plated fitting used?

New York City area high salt water ground water levels etc. corrosive as Hell.

The gas company is looking into it too.

Cool !

Thought I would borrow from some of the knowledge here also.

Hope I am helpful.

Thanks,
Floyd
Sincerely
Len Andersen   Engineer  ASME IGTI /

len@lenandersen.com
len.turbine@gmail.com
914-536-7101 / 914-237-7689 (H) / 800-428-4801 USA
POB 1529 / NYC 10116-1529 ( $~1400 per year Caller
Box GPO NYC / Most Secure Service At Largest Post Office USA )
www.lenandersen.com
PS - http://lenandersen.com/personal_info/resume.html
Parent - By WeldinFool (**) Date 11-24-2015 19:14
This is a fairly common coating on machined fittings, I've seen it mostly on those that come from "overseas". We just buff it off like normal paint and keep on burning...
- By welderbrent (*****) Date 11-24-2015 01:21
Take a look at this link (Wikipedia) for more info on anodizing and the various materials it is used on.  There are a couple of different operations within the classification of 'anodizing'. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anodizing 

Steels can be, aluminum is most common by most research I quickly did.  But take a look at the link and see for yourself.  Or, just google 'anodizing' for yourself.

Brent
- - By Paladin (***) Date 11-24-2015 01:49 Edited 11-24-2015 03:40
Brent,
I also googled wiki about anodizing steel  before posting the question of these fittings being possibly anodized.
Great minds think alike, fools rarely differ, no?

But it looks like Al may be on the money.
Just received this picture and you can see what looks like "runs" in the varnish or what ever the protective coating is.

It just may be that it is much to do about nothing. The person receiving  the fittings, a nice fellow but has not handled lots of pipe, suggested that they had a  zinc coating. He took the pictures and that started the ball rolling down hill.

The powers that be are on it and should hear from the supplier tomorrow.

Floyd
Attachment: image011.jpg (435k)
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 11-24-2015 03:37
I agree, that picture makes it look more like a rust prohibitive spray on film coating of some kind.  LPS or one of so many others.

Brent
Parent - By Trackergd (**) Date 11-24-2015 17:00
I agree with Brent.  I have seen this sort of rust preventative coating before when I was in the petrochemical fire protection system field.  It smokes and stinks.  If I am correct and it is what I think, you can remove it with solvent, brush and rags.  It will all have to be removed before paint anyway, but you should be OK with removing it about 3-6" back from the joint.  If it is the thicker rubbery stuff, you will need a putty knife to get the worst of it off.
- - By Paladin (***) Date 11-25-2015 01:24
We heard from the supplier today.
They said it was a lacquer used to "distinguish their flanges".
And it does not effect welding nor harmful while welding.

We will see about the smell when heated up.

Thanks to everyone who posted up.

This is a good example how someone with little knowledge making an assumption can start rumors.

Floyd
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 11-25-2015 02:02
So Allan hit it with his comments several posts above.  Great call Allan.

Congrats on finding your answer Floyd.  Always good to know exactly what you are dealing with before it's too late.

Some fair information and good conversation even if we were mostly 'all wet'.

Brent
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 11-25-2015 02:24
Well Brent, there is always a "first time" when some manufacturer decides to do something different but doesn't let anyone else know of their decision. Glad to hear in this case that it doesn't appear to be anything to lose too much sleep over. Best regards, Allan
Parent - - By ctacker (****) Date 11-25-2015 02:45
I'd ask the mfg for a MSDS sheet on that lacquer. Some salesmen will tell you anything to sell a product.

Carl
Parent - - By mcostello (**) Date 11-25-2015 03:14
With hearing nearly forever "get the base metal clean" or words to that effect, would it not be prudent to at least buff off that layer of mystery coating? Just a humble tyro rod burner and Tungsten dipper asking for enlightment.
Parent - - By Paladin (***) Date 11-25-2015 03:25
I will definatly grind off any surface that will be in contact with the weld.
For one thing that is part of the procedure.
And I'm not about to breath the fumes off burnt lacquer any more than I can help it.

MSDS is on the way. But I'm a welder not a chemist. It's all Latin to me.

If it is known to cause cancer in California, will it in Texas? 

Floyd
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 11-25-2015 04:32
Distilled water causes cancer in CA.  Thank goodness it has been contained at the borders.

Brent
Parent - By Tyrone (***) Date 11-25-2015 11:32
:lol:  like
Parent - By lo-hi (**) Date 11-25-2015 13:32
Brings back pleasant memories of cosomalene or whatever the gooey stuff the military plastered on everything.
Parent - - By PlasmaHead2 (***) Date 12-05-2015 01:50
Zinc Chromate is what it looked like at first...
Kinda nasty... I'd rather deal with a varnish.
Parent - By Paladin (***) Date 12-05-2015 14:54
The coatings on the 4 inch flanges are lacquer. From the first picture it was not clear (to me) what it was.
But looking at them in person Ray Charles could see that it is a sloppy coating job. You can see where the lacquer puddled up, runs, and places where it flacked off.

The young engineer , a very nice well meaning but worrying sort, got excited when he saw the non standard black or green finish on the made in Spain flanges. He sent more than one person on a needless quest.

Biggest problem for me, on this project, is man handling the heavy 8 inch 600 lbs flanges. I don't know how much one weighs but I would guess 6 or 7 would add up to 600 lbs.

Floyd
- - By mean (*) Date 11-25-2015 19:30
Coating is zinc irdate. Thin, grind it out.
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 11-25-2015 22:47
Are you referring to zinc iodide?  I wasn't aware of its' usage as a protective coating.  Not sure I would want to "grind it out". 

The last picture and information supplied by the OP would tend to indicate a different conclusion as to the content of the coating and how to remove it.

Just my two tin pennies worth.  Glad you are able to identify it so specifically from a picture.  Possibly a personal experience with this product?

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Plated or anodized flanges

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