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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Welding Hastelloy to 316L
- - By PFI (**) Date 11-24-2015 16:25
Good morning guys,

I have a tough one, I have a customer that is welding Hastelloy to 316L using at GTAW root and remaining passes with GMAW, they are using Inconel 182 for a filler and a Tri-mix gas.  Unfortunately I don't have the PQR in front of me at the moment (I will be at their location tomorrow) but I thought I would get the ball rolling with Ideas ....

They are getting lack of fusion between the GMAW welds and the Hastelloy material, this is discovered after milling the root and covers off and FPI'ing the surface.  Initially i'm thinking wire speed, heat input, angle of gun ....
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 11-24-2015 16:57
Hey Fred,

I can't even find inco 182 listed as a solid filer wire by Specialmetals.  Only as SMAW electrode.

Also, Hastelloy is a family of metals so it's impossible to speculate much without knowing which Hastelloy we are talking about.

General Terms
If these are multi-pass welds it will always be critical to have superior gas coverage.

The post weld oxides on most Hastelloy family welds is TENATIOUS and must be removed prior to successive weld passes are placed.  This can be dealt with for GTAW with advanced trailing shields.  With GMAW the travel speeds are such that the oxides are really going to be robust as the weld will still be quite hot, if not still "mushy' when the gas coverage leaves the weld.

The other variable you mentioned, WFS, Gun angle, etc. can play havoc if the weld prep and inter-pass care is perfect.

I'm curious also about the mixture of your Tri-mix gas, and if you are using GMAWP or traditional spray transfer.  If GMAWP, what type of waveform?
Parent - - By PFI (**) Date 11-24-2015 19:38
Sorry Lawrence, I knew if I typed this off memory I would get the details wrong!  here are the details ....

First Material = Hastelloy X
Second Material = 316L

Wire= ERNiCR (Trade name inco 82)

Gas make up = 75% argon 25% helium

Process = Pulse transfer
Parent - By fschweighardt (***) Date 11-24-2015 21:20
that is not an optimum gas choice, but its a bit late now, with WPS's run and all.  Id like to see about .5-1% CO2 in there, makes a difference in penetration
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 11-25-2015 13:25
Lawarnece,
182 is the SMAW version. There is no 182 GTAW or GMAW. That would be 82. Historically Inco has prefaced some of their SMAW electrodes with a 1 to distinguish them from the GTAW rods of the same nominal composition.
Parent - By PhilThomas (**) Date 12-01-2015 04:12
I'm not sure I agree with this.  82 and 182 are different alloys:

82
Parent - By PhilThomas (**) Date 12-01-2015 04:13
I'm not sure I agree that they are the "same"

182 is ENiCrFe3
82 is ENiCr3

...at least in the cored wire world.

HTH
Parent - By Len Andersen (***) Date 11-24-2015 17:12
Been at it for a while and the following might be the way to fly

Haynes International for welding parameter and wire/flux
Global Headquarters
1020 West Park Avenue
P.O. Box 9013
Kokomo, Indiana 46904-9013 (USA)
Phone: 1-800-354-0806 or (765) 456-6012
Fax: (765) 456-6905
www.haynesintl.com

Besides Lincoln are good people to talk to. Hope it is helpful.

Sincerely
Len Andersen   Engineer  ASME IGTI /
len@lenandersen.com
len.turbine@gmail.com
914-536-7101 / 914-237-7689 (H) / 800-428-4801 USA
POB 1529 / NYC 10116-1529 ( $~1400 per year Caller
Box GPO NYC / Most Secure Service At Largest Post Office USA )
www.lenandersen.com
PS - http://lenandersen.com/personal_info/resume.html
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 11-24-2015 23:48 Edited 11-25-2015 00:34
In general, nickel-based alloys will exhibit both sluggish welding and shallow penetration characteristics...Therefore, care must be used with respect to joint design and weld bead placement to insure that sound welds with proper weld bead tie-in are achieved... The nickel-based alloys have a tendency to crater crack, so grinding of starts and stops is recommended...

Selection of welding filler materials is a critical element in the design of a corrosion-resistant welded structure... Often, several types of corrosion-resistant alloys are used at various locations in the same structure... The selection of welding filler materials for dissimilar metal joining applications is also critical...

Two methods of welding filler material selection are possible...
They are (1) selection of matching filler materials and (2) selection of over alloyed filler materials... When the matching filler material technique is used, the filler material is of the same chemical composition as one or both of the base materials... In dissimilar welding applications, using the matching filler material technique, the filler material is chosen to match the base material which is generally more highly alloyed (more corrosion resistant)... With the over alloyed filler material selection technique, a highly alloyed, highly corrosion-resistant welding filler material is used... Over alloyed filler metal selection reduces the chance of preferential weld metal corrosion attack... In addition, the use of a single over alloyed filler material on a job site greatly reduces the chance of filler metal mix-up...

When joining the Hastelloy alloy base materials to carbon steel or low-alloy steel, the arc may have a tendency to play onto the steel side of the weld joint... Proper grounding techniques, a short arc length and torch/electrode manipulation are necessary to compensate for this problem...

It should be recognized that nickel-based alloy weld metal is sluggish (not as fluid as carbon steel) and does not flow out as
readily and "wet" the sidewalls...  Therefore, the welding arc and filler metal must be manipulated so as to place the molten metal where needed...  In addition to the sluggishness, the joint penetration is also less than that of a typical carbon or stainless steel weld... With this low penetration pattern, the possibility of incomplete fusion increases...  As a result of these factors, care must be taken to insure that the groove opening is wide enough to allow proper torch or electrode manipulation and placement of the weld bead...

The welding surface and adjacent regions should be thoroughly cleaned with an appropriate solvent prior to any welding operation... All greases, cutting oils,crayon marks, machining solutions, corrosion products,paints, scale, dye penetrant solutions, and other foreign matter should be completely removed... Stainless steel wire brushing is normally sufficient for interpass cleaning of GTAW and GMAW weldments... (200 Degree F Max. before restarting welds) The grinding of starts and stops is recommended for all fusion welding processes... If oxygen or carbon dioxide bearing shielding gases are used during gas metal arc welding, light grinding is necessary between passes prior to wire brushing...

Knowing the specific Hastelloy type/grade and chemical composition is vital to insure you are using the appropriate and optimal filler metal especially when dissimilar welding... Buttering the 316L side of the joint with the recommended Hastelloy X (ERNiCrMo) filler metal could make it easier to fuse than with the inconel 182 (ERNiCr) that you are using currently because the Molybdenum in Hastelloy x which enable better wetting characteristics... And it would also would reduce dilution which is critical in dissimilar welds once you weld the 2 members together... As mentioned previously, increased bevel angle should be used on the Hastelloy side, and the root gap could also be increased slightly depending on the joint in question...

Are you using an Argon, Helium, Carbon Dioxide, or a instead of Helium, replaced by Oxygen is in the tri-mix? Is inconel 182 the recommended filler for that dissimilar metal joint? Why not use a Hastelloy alloy that matches the Hastelloy base metal or over alloying the weld deposit instead? As far as not knowing what the PQR shows, the parameters you listed cannot be used to recommend any changes if necessary...

Here's a guide for welding filler metal information including dissimilar welding:

http://www.haynesintl.com/pdf/h3159.pdf

Use page 23 as your welding filler metal guide for Hastelloy X. Go first to page 24 to find Hastelloy X then to page 25 for group II base metal combinations for dissimilar welding... Once there look @ the corresponding numbers of the recommended alloy filler metals to use for your metal combination and then go on to page 26... Group II recommends numbers 3 and 14 respectively. so you have to go back to page 24 to find out each of the numbers listed which are 3,14... Number 3 is Hastelloy X and number 14  is Haynes 556 Alloy to over match...

Here's 2 brochures on Hastelloy X:

http://www.haynesintl.com/pdf/h3009.pdf

http://www.haynesintl.com/pdf/h3149.pdf

Here are some guides with welding information for various Haynes products including Hastelloy grades:

http://www.haynesintl.com/search.asp?zoom_query=welding+smart+guide

There's probably more to add on what to look out for when you visit your customer but without knowing the details, all we can do is offer a few suggestions. So that's it for now... Lawrence has much more experience in dissimilar welding of Hastelloy with various alloy compositions so look out for his comments as well... And fschweighardt is correct in adding .5 to 1% Carbon Dioxide to the mix for better penetration... Bottom line is this... Call Haynes International in Kokomo, IN  as Len mentioned earlier in order to match the correct filler metal for dissimilar welding of Hastelloy X to 316L Stainless steel... Good luck.:grin::cool:

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By PFI (**) Date 11-25-2015 03:03
Henry,

Thank you very much for this huge cashe of information!!  I will completely review the whole process tomorrow and report back with additional information.
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 11-25-2015 04:34
You must be feeling better.  You haven't written that much at one time for quite a while.

Brent
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 11-25-2015 06:26
Hi Brent,

Yeah, I am feeling better today yet who knows how well I'll feel tomorrow with respect to my health... I had some free time today waiting for people like my visiting nurse who never showed but called to say she had a flat tire... And then my physical therapist called to tell me that she couldn't come over today because of a schedule mix-up with one of her other patients... She did however tell me that she would be coming over on Friday after Thanksgiving...

So I ended up going through my exercises and in no time I was pumped up enough yet bored out of my skull for about 5 minutes... This led me to get online and visit the forum to browse around looking for a post or two I could enjoy answering to... I took some time to gather all of the information I posted in my replies and it was fun being challenged to give a thorough reply...

I have to give thanks to our Lord and Savior for sparing my brain from anymore mental anguish and illness than what I already have gone though in the last few months...

Now I have so much to be hopeful to eventually be cured of most of my illnesses and losing all of the fluid waste byproducts that was accumulating in my body as a direct result of my worsening kidney health because of the excess weight which I carried for a few years now until I got really sick from chronic kidney failure... Because my kidneys failed as bad as they did and had no chance at restoring some of its functions for them to do their job and pass the waste fluids through to my bladder... There was a steady increase of fluid retention to the degree that my other organs such as my lungs and my heart suffered as a direct response of the kidneys not being able to perform its designated duties as it would normally...

On the day I was rushed to the hospital because my brother found me slumped over in my power chair and unconscious, my heart had a series of attacks and my lungs were no longer passing enough oxygen into my blood stream for my organs to keep them healthy and as a result I fell into a coma for 6 days in the ICU.. And after 6 days, my brother came over to visit and was sitting next to my bed and talking to me promising me that he would never again treat me with the very little respect he had shown to me over the years because of envying me so much in order to deflect his own lack of success... He pleaded to me to wake up and before he could get up and walk away, I woke up and told him: "You know I have been waiting for such a long time to hear you apologize to me for your shortcomings!" I must have spooked him because he went out of the room screaming to the nurses to hurry up and get over to my room because I had woken up and he wasn't sure if I would stay awake...

When he came back into the room he was more composed and expressed his happiness to me for pulling through and then he started explaining to me what was going on with me from what the doctors told him... The news wasn't good is an understatement! And then he told me that they had already started me on dialysis while in a coma to try and suck out all of the fluid waste byproducts that were trapped in my body... When I heard this, I knew right then that my life had changed dramatically and I would more than likely have to go through dialysis for the rest of my life... Unless I could find a matching donor to circumvent the UNOS transplant waiting list which if you were fortunately able to get on it, the odds of receiving a kidney transplant were almost non existent... Because the kidney has to be more specifically matched for quite a lot of different variables than let's say a liver would be matched... And most likely with 146,000 or more people on the waiting list for a kidney (The most of all of the organs to be donated) would mean that there's no chance for me to get one unless all of a sudden 100,000 or more would pass away who were on the same waiting list God forbid!

The only chance was to have somebody in my immediate or extended family to donate one of their kidneys if they were as close to a perfect match as one could possibly find and there weren't any volunteers so far, but you never know how people can eventually change their own minds... After hearing these factoids, I started to get a little depressed but, somehow I knew that this will get better... I didn't have clue how, but I was still confident enough to convince myself that we meaning me and my family would find a way to get me a kidney... In the meantime, I started regularly on dialysis, then eventually discharged from the hospital and then the skill nursing/rehabilitation center... After getting back home, my brother ad to drive me to dialysis which the closest center was around 45 minutes away from where we lived...

This went on for at least a month or more until I was finally approved for transport by the Clarion county transportation service for low income residents (I don't have forty thousand or even a down payment and couldn't make the payments afterwards for a wheel chair van which I would need eventually if I had to drive myself to the dialysis clinic.) and it was a blessing indeed for both of us because it meant that my brother only had to drive me to the clinic once a week on Saturdays instead 3 times a week which took a lot of his own time because each daily session is 4 hours and it was free!!!

So now as I was getting comfortable with the fact that I would be on dialysis for  the rest of my life... I was looking at the evening local news on television and they had a story about potential new methods of curing folks with debilitating forms of arthritis and joint replacements as well as diabetes and kidney disease also... In fact, this technique once perfected could be used to replace tissue and every organ in your body!!! It certainly grabbed my attention and then the story got into the details of this new technique... They used stem cells and immediately I was worried but as they begin to explain the process, I became confident that this would eventually work for me...

Stem cells were harvested not form embryos or aborted children, or form other human beings... The mensychal stem cells used to perform this technique of regenerating tissue and organs were to be harvested directly from my very own fat cells!  After the harvesting, the stem cells are then injected to the site of pain or an organ that has or is failing and then once they go to work, these stem cells trigger and boost our own built in natural regenerative response by replacing damaged cells with new, healthy cells as a replacement... The damaged cells eventually get discharged from the body as any other waste byproduct your body gets rid of... Well I was elated because there were no longer any more moral issues to contend with and it boosted my hope to the stratosphere!!!

On top of that, I wouldn't have to worry about organ rejection because the new tissue that made up the organ was my own therefore eliminating the need for anti-rejection drugs which were the primary reason why my own kidneys eventually failed after 18 years of taking the drugs twice daily!!! So now I find ways to challenge myself and keeping my brain busy which is probably why I'm feeling better these days - Yay!!!

Finally, there are human clinical trials starting soon across the country using this technique as it had already been proven to work successfully on a variety of animals including dogs and are already being performed with excellent and successful outcomes so it's only a matter of time before this technique becomes a recognized procedure that will eventually change the face of medicine as we know of...

Thank you Brent, and everyone else for their prayers because they are starting to get answered as I type.:lol::yell::grin::cool:

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - - By ssbn727 (*****) Date 11-25-2015 06:28
Wow! I wrote too much! I better get some sleep because tomorrow is a dialysis day and they come here early so Good night.

Respectfully,
Henry
Parent - By aevald (*****) Date 11-25-2015 07:08
Hello Henry, all of the words that describe you are active verbs: what do I mean? You have truly survived adversity and many other issues (UNDERSTATEMENT). Every time that you reply to a post you provide a very concise and informational description and fact filled response. You don't have to, but you do it anyway and even in the wake of your physical challenges you don't ever stop......BRAVO!

You provide an example that so many others can benefit from, THANK YOU for all that you do for everyone! We have never met face to face and yet you have impacted my life in many ways.... all positive by the way. I continue to pray for your comfort and recovery Henry, simply the best to you. You have done yourself and your family proud. Very best regards, Allan
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 11-25-2015 17:41
As I sit here at the keyboard I find myself with very mixed emotions, feeling both sorrow and joy for my own reasonably well health.  I have read your story on 'gofundme' and your updates here and now with this one it literally has brought me to tears.  Yes, I am a man who will admit to crying.  And now, these tears are for you, tears of both sorrow and joy just as my feelings for myself. 

I praise the Lord for all the advances in technology that have brought you this far and will hopefully keep you going for a natural lifespan even if somewhat restricted in your abilities. 

Your own views on life and your usefulness and hopes and desires are an encouragement to me and I am sure to others as well. 

Keep fighting Henry.  You are a hero with your attitude and faith. 

I truly wish my wife and I had had more time in our trip back east to have swung further north.  I would have loved to have met you.  Maybe yet. 

This Thanksgiving, I am giving as much thanks for Henry and the opportunity to know him and his story as for anything in my own life and family.

Thanks Henry.  Lead on.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By PFI (**) Date 11-25-2015 18:31
Henry,

I have more information, now that i'm at the facility and have reviewed the whole process, Like I mentioned above, we have a Hastelloy ring jointed to a 316l ring, the joint is a single side vee bevel consisting of a 20 deg. angle each side (40 deg. total) The welder puts in the root weld using GTAW (see parameters below) and puts subsequent passes on top of each other (not the typical 1, 2, 3 bead placement) The last 2 passes are made using the GMAW-P process in a semi-automatic mode on a turn table with torch control manipulation.

GTAW

Gas - 100% AR
Filler wire - ERNiCR-3
Interpass - 200F
Position - Flat
Amperage - 90-120
Volts - 11.5 - 12.5

GMAW

Gas - 75% AR / 25% He
Filler wire - ERNiCR-3
Interpass - 200F
Position - Flat
Amperage - 151-160
Volts - 23.5
WFS - 27.9 (ipm)

I see issues the following issues ...

Joint preparation - Should be 60 - 75 deg. this will allow for more heat input concentration on the base metal (joint sides)
Bead placement - Stacking the beads on top of each other concentrates most of the heat input in the middle of the joint and not where it's needed most, on the sides.
Filler wire - Not using the recommended wire, either ERNiCr-2 or Haynes 556
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 11-25-2015 20:11
The wire won't make a difference. Your 20deg bevel is most likely the problem. This is semi narrow groove. You can have sidewall fusion problems with a lot of alloys with that bevel and pulse GMAW. As you said, open it up.
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 11-25-2015 20:16
One other thing to keep in mind with nickel alloys. Do not think in terms of increasing heat input for any reason. All you will do is segregate alloying elements. It does not help fusion. The worst segregator in this case is Mo. Though X has nominal 9% so it would be a significant amount of segregation for it to matter given the nominal 3% of 316. But just keep this in mind.
Parent - - By kcd616 (***) Date 11-26-2015 01:08
Henry,
have a happy thanksgiving my good friend:cool::smile:
and the same to all the others here:smile:
now to Fred's question, many decades ago made this weld many times for water treatment equipment:eek:(getting old:roll:)
used inconel filler and ar-he gas mix
it was a few Fluor jobs, so you know they were ocd about everything
off the top of my head I can not remember
exact filler #'s or gas mix
if I can find some of the documents, will post what they say
sincerely,
Kent
Parent - By PFI (**) Date 11-30-2015 02:42
Henry, Js55, Welderbrent and others, thank you very much for your help!! I will communicate the suggestions and let you know how it all pans out.  Henry, I wish the best of health to you!
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Welding Hastelloy to 316L

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