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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / slag inclusion clarification.
- - By Justin Date 06-05-2016 01:20
I work at a structural steel facility and currently we are welding together some support beams with 7/64 innershield.
As anyone who runs this wire or anything similar already knows, voltage porosity is a common occurrence unless welding parameters and technique are very precise.
I am aware that in the d1.1 there is a tolerance for voltage porosity, (whole size accumulated within x weld length etc...) and we have been welding this electrode to these standards for years.
We now have a new inspector who is telling us that no mater what the whole size is, if it contains slag, even in the smallest amount, it must be fixed because it is a "slag inclusion". Keep in mind, these are single pass fillet welds with very tiny wholes in random spots on random welds.
My understanding is this, first of all it's not a slag inclusion unless you weld over it. second, there are tolerances for slag inclusions depending on what your welding. third, this one is not "code book" but more just simple logic, if I were to take an acceptable sized voltage porosity whole, take a small enough piece of wire or whatever, and clean that slag out of the weld.... does it make it any stronger? I asked this inspector this very question and he said yes.
I can't seem to find anything in the d1.1 regarding slag in voltage porosity wholes. If anyone could refer me to something in the code book or similar source that goes a little more into detail I would appreciate it. Thanks.
Parent - By HJLBX Date 06-06-2016 02:15 Edited 06-06-2016 04:38
In D1.1\D1.1M:2015, Table 6.1 - Visual Inspection Acceptance Criteria (8) Porosity:

The acceptance\rejection criteria is for piping porosity only - which is a very specific type of porosity.  Furthermore, there is no mention of slag within the porosity.

Slag inclusions are not a part of visual inspection in D1.1, except for Welding Procedure and Welder\Welding Operator qualification tests (Clause 4: 4.9.3.3, 4.9.4.1, 4.22..2.2 and 4.22.4.1).

* * * * *

I'm assuming there is nothing in the contract documents that specifies visual inspection of slag contained in porosity...

I would ask the inspector to produce the visual inspection requirements as specified in the contract documents. 

If nothing but D1.1 is referenced in the title block of the print, then the acceptance criteria of Table 6.1 applies - unless noted otherwise elsewhere in the contract documents.
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 06-06-2016 12:16
Voltage porosity?
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 06-06-2016 12:37
First time hearing the term "voltage porosity" for me also.

However, too much voltage can cause porosity with FCAW...particularly with the self-shielded wires. You can usually notice that as you add voltage and just before you cross the threshold of creating porosity, you will see worm tracks on the cap just under the slag. To me, this means the puddle is cooling off and solidifying before the gasses and vapors can escape to the atmosphere.

My suggestion would be to get the welders under control and get them welding within the WPS that does not cause porosity. If you find that it isn't due to excessive voltage, you may need to look at cleaning the joints prior to welding, to make sure they are not welding over cutting fluids or cutting slag on plate edges or something simple.

Porosity is curable, and shouldn't be causing weld inspection issues.
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 06-06-2016 12:24 Edited 06-06-2016 12:31
I'm not sure what a "voltage porosity hole" is.... Today is the first time I've heard the term.

Nonetheless  Table 6.1 is your guide for visual inspection as HJLBX rightly noted.

Having said that... If the porosity that is holding slag is at the toes of the weld (single pass fillet) a case can be made by your inspector friend.  I see his loophole easily enough :)

Slag holding porosity at a fusion boundary like a fillet toe might be interpreted as "between weld metal and base metal"     If the porosity includes slag... Well,  it's a slag inclusion by definition.

"Table 6.1
(2) Weld/Base Metal Fusion
Complete fusion shall exist between adjacent layers of weld metal and between weld metal
and base metal.
"

""5.25.1.3 Incomplete Fusion, Excessive Weld Porosity,
or Slag Inclusions. Unacceptable portions shall be
removed (see 5.25) and rewelded."
"

"Annex J Glossary
*fusion-type discontinuity. Signifies slag inclusion, incomplete
fusion, incomplete joint penetration, and
similar discontinuities associated with fusion.
"

If the porosity (even holding slag) is on the weld face and not in a fusion boundary, I would look to the "porosity" guidance in table 6.1 (8) A, B & C
.
.
.

Now to the more ethereal stuff:   If this porosity is related to voltage, and you have years of experience with the occurrence... Why haven't your processes been brought under control to eliminate it?

If you are manufacturing in a structural steel "facility" and not erecting in the field... Why are you using "innershield" (self shielded FCAW) when it is far more sensitive to voltage and technique related defects than "outershield" or (gas shielded FCAW) ?   Also the deposition rates are significantly lower for self-shielded type electrodes.

Edit:
It's a double edged sword of weld management....      Zero tolerance of porosity is usually overkill in a quality manual/system for structural steel.

On the other hand... If you tell Johnny that he is going to gouge out and reweld the porosity he leaves in his work... He will learn to make welds without porosity.

Same goes with spatter.
- - By welderbrent (*****) Date 06-06-2016 13:32
The other posters have pretty well covered the subject.

Porosity itself is not the issue though should be brought under control to where it is a definite non-issue.

Slag remaining after slag removal procedures, usually from overlap or incomplete fusion.  Slag in porosity can get there from the needle scaler, chipping hammer, etc pounding it in but is not rejectable by any provision of Table 6.1 or anywhere in Clause 6.  Does not change the character of the porosity either.  Though, as stated by others, along a toe edge may add a new dimension to discerning fusion.  Rather grasping at straws I would say. 

I like the way you introduced new terminology.  Voltage porosity, I'll have to try and find a technical definition for that one though I can see how the two relate and could be contrasted with 'impurity porosity' or 'gaseous porosity' for instance.  Got our attention anyway and made us think.  Good going.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - By Lawrence (*****) Date 06-06-2016 13:48
It's totally grasping at straws... But the "text" makes at least an argument valid nonetheless :)
- By CWI555 (*****) Date 06-06-2016 16:08
As anyone who runs this wire or anything similar already knows, voltage porosity is a common occurrence unless welding parameters and technique are very precise.

Seems like I recall something in FC 2002 for that. It was in the section covering the duties and responsibilities of the rice crispy whisperer.
- By Justin Date 06-06-2016 17:24
Most of the welding in the shop is done with dual shield wire these days. The older guys in the shop are all capable of welding the inner shield without porosity. We only use the inner shield anymore on these support members and the majority of the problem is, they keep sticking rookies with the welding.
With time, the proper technique will be achieved and this won't be a problem but how much should we have to fix according to code in the meantime.
I hadn't realized that the term voltage porosity was more a general term invented by my peers. Kinda gave me a laugh.

Clause 6.9 "All welds shall be visually inspected and shall be acceptable if the criteria of Table 6.1 are satisfied"
This does not reference another source of visual acceptance criteria.

t
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-06-2016 22:11 Edited 06-07-2016 00:58
Table 6.1 is not all inclusive. Any inspector that hangs his future on table 6.1 without considering the visual criteria provided elsewhere in the code has a relative short future in the field of inspection.

Consider the following:

Clause 2 Design includes:
a) dimensional criteria for plus and slot welds.
b) criteria for checking the size of a fillet weld in a lap joint with regards to establishing the edge of the member.
c) hold back requirements.
d) end return requirements.
e) interrupting welds on opposite sides of a common plane.
f) removal of backing and weld tabs.
g) when members and how members of different thicknesses and widths must be transitioned.

Clause 3 Prequalification includes:
a) shape/contour of back gouges on the second side.
b) tolerances for prequalified groove details.
c) maximum root openings permitted without correction for members joined with fillet welds.

Clause 5 Fabrication includes
a) requirements electrode storage and exposure times (SMAW low hydrogen electrodes).
b) preheat and interpass temperatures.
c) WPS must be followed when making the weld.
d) heat input control for Q&T steels.
e) backing requirements, i.e., backing must be continuous and when more than one piece is joined to make a continuous backing, they must be CJP.
f) location of the weld in accordance with approved drawings.
g) mill induced defects (laps, seams, laminations).
h) acceptance criteria for laminations.
i) roughness requirements for thermal cut surfaces.
j) reentrant corners.
k) tack weld requirements.
l) Assembly tolerances.
m) separation between the underside of the groove and backing.
n) corrective actions for excessive root openings.
o) tolerances of stiffeners, compression members, etc.
p) Weld profiles including cracks, overlaps, face reinforcement, etc. 
q) repairs of typical defects including slag inclusions.
r) arc strikes.

I will agree that the New Farm Code includes no criteria for slag inclusions. Interesting. Could the inspector show you in the code where the discontinuity containing the slag was unacceptable?

How could it be that the New Farm Code does not include any criteria for slag inclusions?

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By HJLBX Date 06-07-2016 00:18
Within the context of the OP's post, only 6.9 - Visual Inspection and Table 6.1 - Visual Inspection Acceptance Criteria applies.

5.25.1.3 Incomplete Fusion, Excessive Weld Porosity, or Slag Inclusions.

Acceptance criteria for surface-breaking porosity is governed by Table 6.1 while internal porosity and slag Inclusions are governed by Clause 6 UT & RT (IF porosity or slag inclusion(s) cause a CJP weld to fail UT or RT, then the porosity and\or slag inclusion(s) must be removed and re-welded).
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-08-2016 02:35
Sorry, my comment wasn't specific to "voltage porosity", only that Table 6.1 doesn't include all the visual criteria that must be considered when performing "visual inspections". The old mantra Before, During, and After includes other considerations besides the weld attributes included in Table 6.1. Sorry if my response wasn't clear.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By Justin Date 06-08-2016 10:29
The statement made in 6.9 regarding 6.1 is discontinuity specific. if we are talking about weld design, process, electrode, or testing related issues sure 6.1 is not where one should look. But I appreciate you pointing that out Al.
At any rate, we have come to a compromise. Our "text book expert" found a tolerance given on visible slag for macroetching. I wasn't quite clear on how it applies to production and it's not in my D1.1 2004. But apparently problem solved. Thanks for the all the input!
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-10-2016 00:59
May I ask why D1.1:2004 is being used? There may be a perfectly good reason for doing so, but it would be interesting to know why.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By Justin Date 06-10-2016 10:06
it's just the copy I have at home. Boss has the up to date one at work.
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 06-10-2016 18:39
I asked because not all projects automatically invoke the latest edition of D1.1.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 06-10-2016 22:16
Lots of differences between the 2004 and the 2015.  Be careful trying to study out a concern at home and then debating anyone at work, especially the boss, who may be referencing the 2015.

Brent
Parent - By kcd616 (***) Date 06-11-2016 04:04
Brent,
full Kent mode here
debate the boss, the EOR and every inspector:evil::twisted::wink:
stick to your guns
let the chips fall where they land:twisted::eek::evil::wink:
besides 2015 is Al's favorite code book:eek::razz:
just a little ribbing
and fun among friends
sincerely,
Kent
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / slag inclusion clarification.

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