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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Effective shielding gasses in welding question
- - By MRWeldSoCal (***) Date 06-15-2016 16:38
Argon, CO2, Helium, Hydrogen....  Why no other Noble gasses used for weld shielding?  Is the weight if the gas or the density too much for shielding heavier than Argon?  Why is Neon not used at all?
Parent - By 357max (***) Date 06-15-2016 17:20
argon & helium are the noble gases; carbon dioxide, oxygen, nitrogen and hydrogen are reactive gases that may be blended with the noble gases for shielding gases or carbon dioxide used alone as shielding. There is a potential of over 900 combinations of blends with the listed six gases. Some a bi-mix, tri-mix, quad mix or even quint mixes. Neon would provide a colorful arc, radon might glow on its own, krypton (Superman Welders might have a problem) & xenon may be just a bit too expensive.
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 06-15-2016 18:23
Cost.
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 06-15-2016 19:12
Argon is a byproduct of air separation, so there are sources across the fruited plain.

Although helium is the second most abundant element in the universe, most of it in the Earth's atmosphere bleeds off into space. Helium used for industrial purposes is a byproduct of natural gas production, and the Texas Panhandle is the United States' helium capital. In the natural gas fields near Amarillo, the U.S. government maintains the country's largest helium storehouse. The government put it there back in 1925 because natural gas produced at the gas fields between Amarillo and Hugoton, Kan., has a very high helium concentration—up to 1.9 percent.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/health/a4046/why-is-there-a-helium-shortage-10031229/

So yeah... Cost  :)
Parent - By fschweighardt (***) Date 06-16-2016 01:34
Super expensive, for no real benefit.
We get neon and krypton from the air, but the concentration is ludicrously low.
About 18 ppm for neon, 1 ppm of krypton
Parent - - By MRWeldSoCal (***) Date 06-16-2016 15:38
So that gasses work just the same for shielding right? would they be more stabilizing because they are more dense?
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 06-16-2016 17:15
That's over my head :)

I sorta doubt the work "just the same"  Even argon and helium have some pretty notable differences when you pass that electric arc current through them eh?
Parent - By MRWeldSoCal (***) Date 06-16-2016 18:42
no doubt about it, I had someone ask me and it got me curious what the characteristics would be..
Parent - - By js55 (*****) Date 06-16-2016 19:15
Gases don't stabilize due to density. They stabilize by ionization potential.
They will however narrow the plasma column due to density and thereby concentrate the arc in a smaller area.
Parent - - By MRWeldSoCal (***) Date 06-16-2016 19:36
gotcha I see. Thank you for that clarification.
Parent - - By fschweighardt (***) Date 06-21-2016 02:34
I submit that the density of the gas has a relatively small effect, but the HEAT of the arc and it's distribution are affected by the thermal conductivity of the gas or gas mix.  Argon transfers heat poorly, so the heat effects due to the arc are somewhat concentrated.  Ionization energy, and the corresponding release of that energy when the molecule of interest moves far enough away from the arc is probably the largest effect.  For multiple molecule gases, you have dissociation and recombination energy in there as well.

Arc physics are horribly complex
Parent - - By MRWeldSoCal (***) Date 06-21-2016 22:50
How does one find the ionization energy of a gas or molecule?
Parent - By js55 (*****) Date 06-23-2016 12:04
AWS actually has a very good book on shielding gases. It lists the ionization potentials of all the common welding gases and a lot more.
Parent - - By PlasmaHead2 (***) Date 06-16-2016 03:49
I asked the LWS about that one time... It was over $100 for a paintball sized tank of any other noble gasses :eek:
Neon might have been a little cheaper, I think I only asked about Kr or Xe...
Parent - - By MRWeldSoCal (***) Date 06-16-2016 20:29
Wow yea thats pricy!
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 06-16-2016 23:58
Argon and Helium walk into a bar

The bartender says:  "We don't serve Noble Gasses around here."

They didn't react.
Parent - - By PlasmaHead2 (***) Date 06-23-2016 05:05
Thank you for almost ruining my keyboard.... :lol::lol::lol:
And adding to my arsenal of welding jokes.:twisted::lol::lol::lol:

PS,
Why was the grinding wheel sad?

Because it had a depressed center.
Parent - By MRWeldSoCal (***) Date 06-24-2016 03:59
Please share more of this gold!
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Effective shielding gasses in welding question

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