Groove vs. Surfacing Welding Skills

Date 04-24-2003 21:18

Hey Sailor,
I believe that the groove weld is easier for the beginning students simply because the bevel edges help them to keep the bead straighter. With surface welding it's harder for a beginner to see the crown/face of the previous bead so consequently they're usually all over the plate. But I teach the surface welding first for economical reasons. It's more cost efficient to have them mess up a 6"X2" piece of 1/4" flat stock than to learn to strike an arc on a completely fit-up groove.
Just one man's opinion.
HT1 Casey

By MBSims

Date 04-25-2003 02:01

Okay Curt, watch the "Hey Sailor" stuff lest someone get the wrong idea.

Having the groove as a guide does help. Does your training experience indicate that producing a sound surfacing weld requires more, or less, skill than a sound groove weld?

Thanks,
Marty

By pipewelder_1999 (****)

Date 04-25-2003 03:09

I'm not an instructor but I played one sometimes at a job I used to have. (And would love to be one!)

I think that the ability to make a good surfacing weld shows a very good ability to control bead placement and maintain a consistent travel speed. As far as developing hand eye coordination, I think surfacing welds give you more practice for the amount of prep time required.

I made a very rough sketch on my site at http://www.weldinginspectionsvcs.com/WeldCapProfile.htm that shows a little of what I think the ability to place beads can help with.

That ability applied to filling a groove is helpful in placing beads in a manner to make a sound weld.

I think we still need to practice in a groove but bead placement is better learned by practicing placing your beads in relation to each other. A related sketch is at

http://www.weldinginspectionsvcs.com/beadSequence.htm

I know that the machininst's were very thankful for our ability to clad weld the aft escape hatches on the boats when it came time to machine them.

Have a nice day

Gerald Austin

By bmaas1

Date 04-25-2003 06:28

I would think you would need to learn the surfacing technique first in order to learn proper bead placementor overlapping of beads for groove welds.

Just my opinion,

Brian Maas

By MBSims

Date 04-25-2003 23:45

Gerald,

Thanks to you and everyone else for replying to my question. Based on your experience, would you say that someone that has passed a groove weld qualification test usually has the skills required to produce an acceptable surfacing weld?

Marty

By TimGary (****)

Date 04-25-2003 12:19

I am not an Instructor, but would like to bring one point to the table.
I've interviewed/tested many welders that have just graduated from welding school. They are always able to weld pretty decent looking surface welds and can overlay in a uniform manner, some better than others. However, 95% of the welders who failed the plate groove tests did so because they did not know how to avoid slag entrapment and/or incomplete fusion voids, inside of bevel fill welds. This has led me to believe that it is either more difficult to teach code compliant groove welding or perhaps there is not enough emphasis in that area.
To be fair, I have to point out that my experience in these matters has been limited to South Louisiana and Eastern Tennessee.
Tim

By jwright650 (*****)

Date 04-25-2003 12:48

Tim,
I too have experienced the same situations as you did regarding groove welds. They (new welders right out of school) are able to fill these grooves nicely and if you never cut them or NDT them you would think that it was an A1 job. The cap looks great, nice and uniform, no undercut, no porosity, just pretty, straight beads, very little splatter if any, but when you cut em and bend em you find the mistakes as you have noted in your post.

So, I tend to wonder as Tim said if enough emphasis has been placed on how to properly fill groove welds at the root to avoid trapping slag and achieving the penatration needed to produce good sound welds.
Just another observation in the Central Virginia / Eastern Tennessee areas,
John Wright

By medicinehawk01 (**)

Date 05-26-2003 02:28

It's one thing to fill up a groove (and have it pass a bend test) another to get a student to run straight uniform beads. My students eventually have to pass a bend test on groove welds before they can advance to pipe welding.

I instruct students who work for my company. This a part-time positiion which involves 3 hours once a week to apprentices and other journeyman craftpeople. They run pad build-up until they develop some consistency before they move on to fillet welds, position welds and finally groove welds. My employer specializes in pipe welding so when a student passes the groove weld plate tests and gets his or her stuctural certification it is really the first leg of the ladder to develop pipe weldors.

Some of them advance rapidly and move up from apprentice to journeyman weldor quickly, while others have to work harder to get there, but if they stick to it.......they all will have the skills necessary to join the ranks of journeyman weldor. Given the limited time I have to instruct them, they do pretty well and I am fortunate to be a part of it.