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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Math whiz
- - By Paladin (***) Date 07-28-2016 01:30
Before the lights are turned off here, perhaps someone could tell me I'm wrong or right on this little math problem.

I have to build a spine stairway (single 10x4x3/8 tube on the center line of stair) that CURVES.
It will follow a curved wall.
The center line of the spine (tube) would follow  is 50'-6" radius. In other words staying a constant  distance from the curved wall.
Now the spine will be angled up just like all stair stringers.

The question is, will the spine have that 50'-6" radius, or be slightly larger?

My thinking is that it will be a little larger.
Lets say the run of the stair is 15', where the spine starts to where is hits the landing. This is a horizontal distance, not angled up.
If you took a string and pulled it from start to stop, the chord, and measured from the middle of the chord to the arc of the radius,  lets say that measurement is 6".

The tube for the stair will be longer than 15' because it angles up while covering the 15' horizontal distance.
Lets say the stringer is 18'.
If that 18' tube was bent on the same radius, 50'-6", the distance from the chord to the tube would be greater.
It would seem to me if it was on the same radius it would track inside of where it should be.

So far, two smart guys have told me same radius. An older experienced builder friend of mine agrees with me, different and longer.

I haven't even begun to figure out how much longer.

Oh yea, bonus if you explain is like I'm a 5 year old.

Hope that is clear.

Floyd
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 07-28-2016 02:27
Man Floyd, you sure know how to tax an old man's brain cells and prod them into several years of uncharted territory. 

First, you are correct, it will be longer than that.  In order to accommodate the radius and the elevation change that only stands to reason.

If you start a standard stair you first calculate your height from floor to floor.  Then, you must know what your available code allowed rise and span distances are.  You take a measurement that is comfortable to the customer (older short people would prefer less rise than younger tall people) and within the code and divide it into the rise.  Say: 140" rise divided by 7" per tread = 20 risers/treads.  Now this will depend upon how you do the final step/landing area but for simple that means you a bottom landing, 19 steps/treads, and then one last up onto your floor/landing.

Then, you take your span and multiply that, usually 11", by the number of treads, in this case 19, to get 209" or 17'-5".  So, you will be 17'-5" out from your floor/landing edge.  That doesn't include the bottom 'imaginary' step on your bottom floor (remember, you actually have 20 steps, you can look at the bottom floor coming down or the top floor going up as number 20) so you have an actual distance from edge to edge of 18'-4".  With those measurements you can calculate your running diagonal using Pythagorean: square root of sum of a squared and b squared.  260.77" diagonal.

Now, that was a round about way of saying, if that measurement is longer than the horizontal run on standard stairs, why would anyone think that the length and/or radius of your spherical stairway would be the same as if measured on the flat?  And the radius will make yours longer than the standard would be.  So, for same height as in this illustration, instead of 260" yours may be about 300".

Now, for your radius stairway...I will have to find my calculations book I used when we used to build these in the shop.  I don't need these formula when inspecting. 

Remember, code will tell you what your minimum span and maximum span on a spherical tread can be.  You have some things to figure out.  You can use what I already said to figure out how many treads you will need based upon code numbers. 

Brent
Parent - - By Paladin (***) Date 07-28-2016 02:49 Edited 07-28-2016 03:32
Brent,
Thanks for your reply.
I have built a good number of stairs and for the last 12 years or so many of them have been spine stairs, just not curved.

Yes the code has to be followed. I have had some architects pinch the space left for the stairs so that the maximum rise and minimum run had to be used to make it work and still pass code.
Last spine stair was a nightmare for fitting it in the space. I had to add an extra landing to make it work. Beginner architect. No details what so ever. Just lines for steps on plan view.

I like to stay close to the magic number for stairs, 18. The rise and run should add up close as possible to 18; like 7 on 11.
Increase rise, shorten run. Ships ladder is the extreme.

Anyway, now its 3 to 2 in favor of my way of thinking. For a while it was 2 to 1 against.

Floyd
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Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 07-28-2016 03:36
I did one very similar to that and with the curve all the way around.  Have also done several circular stairs.  But, it has been way too long.  I have to find my notes to give you any more help.

Brent
Parent - By kcd616 (***) Date 07-28-2016 04:48
Floyd,
try this link and site
http://www.blocklayer.com/stairs/spiral-stairseng.aspx
sincerely,
Kent
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / Math whiz

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