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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Preheat and Interpass Temperatures for OUTSIDE Welding
- - By wnasheim Date 11-17-2016 13:18
Good morning,

New to the forum and new to reading AWS D1.1, so thanks in advance for bearing with a couple of rookie questions:

1) AWS D1.1 Table 3.3 shows four categories - A, B, C, and D.  What are the differences in these categories?

2) We're doing some outdoor structural welding.  It amounts to a 1" A36 plate welded to a HSS 6" x 6" x 1/2" ASTM A500 tube.  There are several weld types required (j-grove, fillet) required to complete the operation.  I'm interpreting Table 3.3 to suggest either 50F or 150F minimum preheat temperatures, depending on if we fall into Category A or B. 

It's outside in the midwest in late fall.  Getting to even 50F will be a little challenging.

Thanks,

W
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 11-17-2016 14:28 Edited 11-17-2016 21:01
Good morning wnasheim and

WELCOME TO THE AWS WELDING FORUM!!

So, First off is the four categories.  They are based upon base metals according to grades considering carbon content and additional alloys as well as, if you look over one column, the welding process that will be used.

Very seldom in structural welding are you going to be in Cat A as it is welded with NON Low Hydrogen electrodes which is just plain not done in almost every circumstance.  Engineers and codes are going to take you to Cat B processes for most standard shop grade materials and Cat C on occasion.  Cat D is rather uncommon for most people and Cat A is just a convenience for rare occasions.

Second, according to your supplied information, both of your materials are found in Cat B if you are using Low Hydrogen electrodes (7018, 8018, etc) or the other processes considered to be of low hydrogen class in performance such as GMAW (spray arc not short arc=GMAW-S) or FCAW either shielded or not (FCAW-G = shielded and FCAW = innershield type wires).   

Third, your joint configuration is not a consideration really, only the thickness of the wall on the HSS and the thickness of the plate.  You will heat per the highest preheat temp which will be the thicker part when dealing with one Category and under most conditions.  Remember, these are minimums.  You can go over and it is usually preferable. 

Fourth, while you cannot be required to preheat if your ambient temps are over 50°F, in your case for your materials, it is wise to consider doing so especially first thing in the morning to keep condensation moisture from collecting on your parts when the temperature inversion draws the H2O out of the air upon the initial striking of the arc and welding beginning.  70-100°F is a very good consideration even though not required, even later in the day when dealing with the temperatures and humidity in your area currently. 

Fifth, D1.1 does not consider a maximum interpass temperature as a consideration but your preheat temp will be a minimum for every pass until the weld in the particular joint is completed. 

Sixth, material preheat temps are measured 3" in all directions from the joint.  On your 1" to 1/2" wall HSS you would heat the 1" plate opposite where welding will occur to insure that preheat is in the through thickness and the minimum is at preheat in the area of the weld.  The 1/2" wall HSS should get enough heat by radiation, convection, etc to heat it sufficiently while heating the 1" to temperature.  If you only try to heat from the welded side and barely get it to 50°, by the time they turn the torch off and set it aside and get a hood on, grab the welder, set up to weld, ...material has cooled off and is no longer preheated properly.  That's why you do the opposite side but take the temp on the side where welding will occur and as the heat transfers through the rest of the steel it will maintain the minimum long enough to start the weld. 

Did I make the visual acuity as transparent as earth infested H20? 

Hope this helps.

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By wnasheim Date 11-17-2016 20:52
Awesome reply, thank you!
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 11-18-2016 14:00
There's a couple other D1.1 requirements that should be mentioned about outside work, especially in the midwest.

5.11 Welding Environment
5.11.1 Maximum Wind Velocity. GMAW, GTAW,
EGW, or FCAW-G shall not be done in a draft or wind
unless the weld is protected by a shelter. Such shelter
shall be of material and shape appropriate to reduce wind
velocity in the vicinity of the weld to a maximum of five
miles per hour [eight kilometers per hour].
5.11.2 Minimum Ambient Temperature. Welding
shall not be done
(1) when the ambient temperature is lower than 0°F
[–20°C], or(2) when surfaces are wet or exposed to rain, snow, or
(3) high wind velocities, or
(4) when welding personnel are exposed to inclement
conditions.
NOTE: Zero°F does not mean the ambient environmental
temperature, but the temperature in the immediate vicinity
of the weld. The ambient environmental
temperature may be below 0°F [–20°C], but a heated
structure or shelter around the area being welded may
maintain the temperature adjacent to the weldment at
0°F [–20°C] or higher.

C-5.11 Welding Environment
C-5.11.2 Minimum Ambient Temperature. Experience
has shown that welding personnel cannot produce
optimum results when working in an environment where
the temperature is lower than 0°F [–20°C]. Reference is
made in 5.11.2 relative to the use of a heated structure or
shelter to protect the welder, and the area being welded,
from inclement weather conditions. If the temperature in
this structure or shelter provides an environment at 0°F
[–20°C], or above, the prohibition of 5.11.2 is not applicable.
The environmental conditions inside the structure
or shelter do not alter the preheat or interpass temperature
requirements for base metals stated elsewhere in the
code.

Tim
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 11-18-2016 15:11
Good points Tim.  Considerations to his jobs for sure. 

Brent
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 11-18-2016 12:27
As Brent stated preheat for the 1" thick plate, and check the preheat at a minimum of 3" from the point of welding. To check this, the easiest way to verify your preheat is with a temperature melting crayon (tempil stick). Preheat your joint and then use the crayon to make a mark on the thicker material being welded at least 3" away, if the crayon mark melts and looks liquid and not chalky...you have reached the temperature of the crayon. Those tempil sticks are actually pretty accurate and I think they come in a variety of melting temperatures. Link to website below:

http://www.tempil.com/tempilstik/
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 11-18-2016 12:55
A huge variety of temps.  Too many for me.  But you really only need about 5 or 6 primary ones for most people on most jobs.

I prefer my IR temp gun.  But, mine is pretty accurate and able to be calibrated.  Still, different surfaces can alter readings but for the temps he is after it would be close enough.  They probably don't really need to worry about taking temps, just do a little preheat and it will be good unless they try welding in sub zero temps in a snow storm.

Hadn't noticed you around alot lately, good to hear from you John.

BB
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 11-18-2016 13:31
Hadn't noticed you around alot lately

I've been around (just reading), just haven't had time to post much. And.... I usually don't have books handy or nearby to reference when answering questions or commenting while I'm out in the field...so I "usually" don't post anything without checking my sources first. This company doesn't have the extensive library that I had privileges to like at my old employer.

Regarding the tempil sticks, I kept an inventory of 50F, 150F, 225F, 500F, 1100F, 1200F...and a few random other ones for when I was doing something odd
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 11-18-2016 15:09
Yeah, those are key temps.  I also usually have  350° and 450° to keep track of how they are doing on their interpass temp.

I know what you mean about the books, I am in SC right now on a job and don't have much with me.  Baggage was bad enough as it was. 

I have been trying to slow down some and respond to things that really get my interest and not just everything that comes up.  Between the two forums now it takes some time just to read everything let alone try to respond.

Brent
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 11-18-2016 16:03
My phone doesn't like the new forum very well, so I haven't spent any time over there reading. I don't really like the layout over there either, so I just keep up with this forum and delete the spam as it arrives.
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Preheat and Interpass Temperatures for OUTSIDE Welding

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