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Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Test Plate Fit Up for Limited Thickness
- - By PerkinsMJ Date 07-18-2017 12:43
First time forum user! Long time CWI!

I am following the requirements of AWS D1.1-15 and using figure 4.20-Test Plate for Limited Thickness-All Positions-Welder Qualifications (See 4.20.1)

I have a few welders that are complaining about the 1/4" root opening using a backing bar. There is no +/- associated with this figure and my reasoning is that there is no excuse for why you can get a 1/4" opening. Its not a beam flange, column or another assembly that has issues that will effect the fit up.

I did find a prequalified weld joint B-U2a that has a fit up tolerance of 1/4" for GMAW with a 45 degree bevel with backing and the tolerances of 1/4" groove prep, -0 as detailed and -1/16" as fit up. so in the end I have a minimum of 3/16" root opening.

We did run a few coupons and had failures on the root and face. In the end I think the guys are used to someone letting them have a typical 1/8" root opening with a backing bar and just run vert up on 3G. The root failed giving me the infamous wagon track indication. The face had a center and toe indications.

I know that one could argue numerous points but when a welder is qualified to a code that changes the interpretation from recommendations or guidelines to requirements. In the end I may have welders that need to tighten up.

Mike
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 07-18-2017 17:29 Edited 07-18-2017 17:34
This could turn into a very long conversation/debate.

I don't see compliant way to use a single bevel for performance qualification testing unless it's in the horizontal orientation.

You are running GMAW vertical-up with spray transfer and steel backing?    That's a trick.     If you are using short circuiting transfer than nothing is prequalified anyway.

Rather than get too deep... I think a reasonable compromise you can make that allows the welders to believe they "got something out of you" would be to allow a **Tight 1/4"** Root opening with a justification that the test assembly in Fig. 4.20 states "(1/4" or 6mm)  and the fact of the matter is that 6mm is a little less than 1/4"   (6mm = 0.23622 inches)

So in reality the test assembly does provide a tolerance.   Tolerance = difference between standard an metric.

This kind of problem is why I prefer the CWB performance qualification assemblies.  They require a wider root opening and a split root with a start/stop on each of the splits....  Totally better test, especially with the single bevel option that allows a destructive test of a fillet in the same assembly.
Parent - - By PerkinsMJ Date 07-19-2017 01:38
No short circuit. I did explain to them to use a "Tight" 1/4" (my words exact as yours).The trick is my welders don't want to listen just burn plates. I had 1 out of 5 pass. He did stringers and before he jumped in asked questions and we reviewed the weld joint and the qualification requirements and the rest just threw weld in the groove. I warned them about that and not getting the root penetration. This is a real eye opener for them and well their complaints should have been more of a warning for me. We are following the book and as I told them, engineers and welders wrote this code.......not inspectors!
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 07-19-2017 02:38
Oh, BTW, there are inspectors who serve on the committees to develop the codes as well though not nearly as many as we would like to see.

Brent
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 07-19-2017 02:36
Mike,

WELDCOME TO THE AWS WELDING FORUM, THE GREATEST WELDING FORUM IN THE WORLD.    Bar None. 

Really??  You actually got one to pass?  Interesting. 

So, I have to ask:  Shielding gas, volts, wire class, size and feed speed?  Also, did he run continuous or 'trigger' it?  Are you running a pulse machine or standard? 

Inquiring minds want to know. 

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
Parent - - By PerkinsMJ Date 07-19-2017 16:06
Well after offering advice and pushing the points of this is why your failing the guys got serious! The biggest issue was technique! I had to give them a WPS showing the weld passes. The biggest was changing the setting once they got the root and hot pass in. The other was not trying to do put in layers but stringers. The gas we have is a 92/8 mix with ER70S-6. The machine is standard not pulsed and continuous. The settings varied between welders but in the end pushing the fact that they needed to slow down, stop, listen and ask questions worked!
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 07-19-2017 16:28
I'm still surprised about the vertical GMAW Spray...

Now,  Can you get them to continue to do stringers in production?
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 07-19-2017 18:44
Especially on a 3/8" plate with not much to distribute heat input.  Interesting.

You still didn't tell us volts and amps/wire feed speed.
Parent - By welderbrent (*****) Date 07-21-2017 23:07
Mike,

Please, forgive our skepticism but this seems highly suspicious.  There are just some things that don't play well together and GMAW Spray in the vertical position is one of those things.  And, even if one could somewhat reasonably accomplish it, does not mean it was code compliant on several fronts.

Remember, just because you are using a shielding gas in excess of Argon ≥ 80% does not mean the machine was running a spray transfer mode.  Hence, my continuing interest in your volts and amps or wire feed speed.  It is all about established parameters and actual operating procedures.  Then, there is the matter of arc characteristics.  Spray transfer and short circuit are two totally different animals.  In between, that's where the purported Globular comes into play, like it or not and I don't (it may have limited value in automotive and a couple of other applications but for the most part it is just a poorly adjusted machine; my opinion and mine pretty much alone).

He Is In Control, Have a Great Day,  Brent
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-20-2017 22:13
Let's me think about this a bit. The welders are not using short circuiting and they are not pulsing, so that leaves spray or globular transfer. I really have serious doubts either transfer mode can be used effectively in the vertical test position using vertical uphill progression. Not using vertical uphill progression, then they are using downhill progression.

They are either using short circuiting transfer to weld vertical or they are using downhill progression. In either case, the WPS is not prequalified, so where is the PQR that supports the welding technique employed? No PQR; then there are no qualified welders if they are using short circuiting transfer or if they are using downhill vertical progression.

Who cares what the root opening is, the WPS isn't qualified based on the information provided.

Al
Parent - - By Lawrence (*****) Date 07-21-2017 11:42
There's the Al we all know and love
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-21-2017 16:06
:cool:
Parent - - By kcd616 (***) Date 07-22-2017 12:29
Al
I can do it
but this is my problem with PQR and WPS
I can do it
but nobody else can ( forgot sourdough can weld anything,:eek::razz::wink:)
back on topic
this is what really makes CWI's job tough
it is not what the best can do
it is what the average can do
I look for the BEST, my work has to be perfect
I never think of less
my true fault
sincerely,
Kent
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-22-2017 17:12 Edited 07-22-2017 19:52
The purpose of a WPS is to provide the welder with direction and to ensure there is consistency in the mechanical properties from one weld to another, from one welder to another.

Depending on the base metal and the application, the range of welding parameters may or may not have an affect on the properties of the completed weld.

In the case of carbon steel, unless notch toughness is a concern, heat input is of little concern. In the case of Q&T steels, heat input is a concern, so the permissible range of the voltage, current, and travel speed must be closely controlled. In the case of heat treatable aluminum such as 6061-T1, the interpass temperature must be controlled to minimize the time at temperature to mitigate overaging. When welding austenitic stainless steel the same is true regarding controlling interpass temperature, but for a different reason.

If every welder was a metallurgist and if every welder took the time to learn what base metal they were welding, the need for a WPS may not be as critical. However, not every welder is a metallurgist and most welders have little interest in the properties of the metal they are working with. Thus someone else has to do the leg work to research what procedures will most likely produce acceptable results.

Until the WPS is tried and test, one has little real knowledge of what the mechanical properties of the completed weld are. Thus we qualify the WPS and record what was done and what the results of the tests were. Then and only then do we know for sure whether the WPS is viable or just someone's best guess.

For many years most welders believed preheating drove the moisture out of the base metal, a necessary precaution to mitigated to probability of delayed cold cracking. For many years welders believed the secret to welding high strength steel (armor plate, etc.) was to use filler metals with high nickel content (309, 310 austenitic stainless steel, Ni-Rod, etc.). We now know the secret is to closely control hydrogen and cooling rates. It wasn't the production welder that figured out the solutions to those problems, it was engineers' research and experimenting that yielded the solutions. That information is passed to the welder via the WPS. The weak link is that the WPS doesn't tell the welder "why" he is directed to weld in a certain way.

A welder with a broad breadth of experience can "learn" by doing. Of course he will stumble along the way, experiencing failures as well as success,  after all, that's what learning is all about. How many times does a baby fall and get up only to fall again before he learns to walk? In welding, we can't afford to wait until a welder learns by doing. There are lives and property at stake. The WPS includes all the lessons already learned by other people.

The difference between the experienced welder and the engineer is the engineer reads books that summarize someone else's experience. The experienced welder, if he's lucky and observant, learns by doing. There is nothing wrong with that approach other than it is slow, expensive, and often costs losses in terms of lives, property, and profit.

The smart welder doesn't simply depend on his personal experience, instead he reads books written by others that have taken the time to summarize their experiences and what they have learned.

As for the CWIs, like myself, many of us have experience as welders and we've studied the subject of welding. The two, experience and education, are essential to being successful. I worked as a welder while earning my degrees, and I continued to weld with a degree because welding paid more than the pencil and paper. However, the education made my job as a welder easier and I was more successful than many of my coworkers. In some cases they may have made "prettier weld beads", but as you know, there is more to welding than laying a pretty bead.

You were not born with the knowledge and experiece needed to make you the expert welder you are. It was only after years of plying your skills and learning hard lessons along the way you acquired the experience, knowledge, and expertise you now have. The problem is, now both you and I are "old." When we pass on, that knowledge, experience, and expertise goes with us unless we pass what we know on to those entering our field.

Be a mentor!

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By welderbrent (*****) Date 07-22-2017 18:28
Excellently spoken. 

Brent
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 07-22-2017 19:54
Thanks Brent.

Al
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Test Plate Fit Up for Limited Thickness

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