Not logged inAmerican Welding Society Forum
Forum AWS Website Help Search Login
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Hydrogen Cracking in Box Columns
- - By Hanif khodayari (*) Date 12-18-2017 15:56
Recently I observed some longitudinal cracking in structural steel box columns.
The question is "what is the first step to stop growing of cracks?"
I should inform that the type of joint and weld of columns are Corner Joint Fillet weld.
Attachment: photo_--_--.jpg (189k)
Parent - - By Tyrone (***) Date 12-19-2017 12:39
Are you absolutely sure it's hydrogen cracks and not solidification (hot) cracks?

If it's hydrogen cracks, there's not much you can do since the hydrogen will advance to the high stress areas (like crack tips), but other areas like dislocations.  It's unpredictable.  I've seen hydrogen cracks branch off and make 90 deg turns. There could also be multiple subsurface micro cracks.

My suggestion (again, if it's hydrogen related), rip it all out and re-weld.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 12-19-2017 17:25
I didn't reply because I was thinking like you regarding hot cracks.....time of discovery would be a nice detail to include.
Parent - By Hanif khodayari (*) Date 12-19-2017 18:40
As I said before I saw them after about 6 months after erection in site.
Thanks.
Parent - - By Hanif khodayari (*) Date 12-19-2017 18:39
I guess these are hydrogen cracks because I saw them after about 6 months and I didn't see after welding finished.
As you know hot cracks occur after welding finished about maximum a few days.
So you said the first step is making 90 deg turns or drilling!?
Thanks.
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 12-19-2017 19:10
Hello Hanif,

Just from looking at the photos, solidification cracking seems to be a likely culprit.
Is it possible that the cracks were missed during the initial acceptance inspection?

Hydrogen Assisted Cracking, or Hydrogen Embrittlement, Cold Cracking, etc. requires three elements to form:
   Hydrogen Absorbtion
   Susceptible Microstructure
   Tensile Stresses
Can you define the base metal type/grade and thickness, electrode classification, pre/post heat procedure and construction code used on this specific component? Have the components been installed in a manner that introduces tensile stresses?

These things may help determine the root cause, however, the repair requirements are the same - The weld or welds need to be removed and replaced in accordance with an approved repair procedure.

Determining the actual root cause can help define the extent of further inspections and repairs that need to be made.

Here's an informative video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wjz8eh3uxkU

Tim
Parent - - By Hanif khodayari (*) Date 12-21-2017 10:35
Hello Tim
Sure, base metal St37 grade 2, thickness 30-40 mm, SAW process, َ5.17: F7 AZ - EM12, preheat Acc table 3.3 AWS D1.1:2015 about 65 'C, but I should We are not should that at the time of welding preheat has done or not while we had employed an inspector for this issue.
In my opinion, there are other factors could be included like high width-to-depth ratio for each welding pass with SAW was about 25-30 mm (width) to 10-15 mm (depth) or low impact energy value as a result of type of welding wire - flux.
What is your idea?
And I want to know that for repairing procedure, is it pointed in AWS D1.1, at first we have to drilling or grinding the both end of the crack tips or not?
At finally I want to say thank you for excellent informative video.
Hanif
Parent - - By TimGary (****) Date 12-21-2017 13:26
Hello again Hanif,

So, looks like your base metal is a variant of mild steel, but unlisted in AWS D1.1, which means procedure qualification.
Do you have a qualified PQR and WPS? If so, what preheat was used in the PQR?
The width to depth ratio you stated looks good, unless the location of these cracks is the result of a previous repair in which the joint was not prepared correctly, or wound up with a narrow groove.
Possible flux contamination? Are you using reclaimed flux? Do you have good flux storage procedures?

There are many things that could contribute to this cracking situation. Trying to nail down the exact root cause is good, but difficult. Mainly what you need to determine is if there has been a breakdown in the following of approved procedures, which could lead to similar defects in many other welded members. Additional inspections should be made.

Repair requirements to D1.1 are listed under section 5.25. Minimum requirements are to remove the entire crack and an additional material removal minimum of 50mm beyond the end of the indications. The tricky part is finding the end of the crack. I recommend material removal and cleaning with PT verification. Drilling or grinding both ends only is not an option.

The question remains, if portions of the weld cracked due to improper weld procedure application, and you repair the cracked areas only, what's to keep the rest of the weld from cracking? It's sometimes best in these situations to remove and replace the entire weld, rather than a localized repair.
Parent - By Hanif khodayari (*) Date 12-21-2017 15:04
hello again Tim
Actually I should say R St 37-2 (old DIN 17100) = S 235 JR G2 (new EN 10025) ~ ASTM A 283 M-98 Grade B or Grade C.
It was used Pre-qualified WPS according AWS D1.1:2015 figure 3.5 and minimum preheat according table 3.3.
According Steel Design Guide 2, 5.3.1 "Centerline Cracking", Recommendations vary from a 1:1 to a 1.4:1 width-to-depth ratio to remedy this condition.
About flux in factory, it was used 70% of new flux and 30% of as you said reclaimed flux not more that 2 times.
I had required to test the surface with MT-Fluorescent with this procedure: if via VT, it is founded any cracks in any column at each floor, it should be expanded around columns included 8 columns (Spot Inspection) and so on.
Unfortunately, cracks are randomly observed in some columns (5% of columns) at about 15 floor (15*45=675 columns).
In fact it is very exciting discussion, the major problem is the type of weld designed, "fillet weld", if it was groove weld the method of detecting crack definitely should be UT.
Thank you so much Dear Tim.
Hanif
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 12-21-2017 12:09
https://app.aws.org/forum/topic_show.pl?tid=20576

I wasn't familiar with ST37 grade 2 and searched the forum....found this description from our friend in Germany "Stephan" and our late friend Giovanni.
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 12-19-2017 21:40
"As you know hot cracks occur after welding finished about maximum a few days."

...agreed
Parent - - By Hanif khodayari (*) Date 12-21-2017 10:38
Hello
what is your idea about the detecting procedure or methods?
As I said before the type of joint and weld are corner-outside fillet weld.
Thanks
Hanif
Parent - By jwright650 (*****) Date 12-21-2017 12:01 Edited 12-21-2017 12:04
"high width-to-depth ratio for each welding pass"

Good possibility, that would go along with the hot cracking though. Shrinkage along the centerline when the weld is cooling off.

Edit: was this 25-30mm wide x 10-15mm SAW weld done in one pass? That is a lot of weld material to be placing in one pass...
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 12-21-2017 14:24 Edited 12-21-2017 14:28
My vote is solute rejection. Low melting point constituents are rejected to the center line of the weld during solidification. While they may have gone undiscovered during fabrication, the cracks may have been present, but too small to be detectable by visual examination alone.

The probability of delayed cold cracking diminishes over time as the diffusible hydrogen effuses. Generally, the weld centerline is not where I would expect hydrogen cracking to originate since the weld deposit is formulated to have a low carbon equivalency, good ductility, and slow cooling if proper preheat is employed. I would expect the delayed cold cracking to be located in the HAZ since it is likely to experience higher cooling rates (compared to the weld) and may have a microstructure more prone to delayed cracking due a higher carbon equivalence (compared to the weld deposit), faster cooling, and increased likelihood of a martensitic microstructure. 

The possibility of center line cracking due to the aspect ration of depth to width is unlikely in this case. The width in this case appears to be about twice the depth. If the depth was greater than the width of the face, I would concur, but that isn’t the case as cited in the post.

Back to the solute rejection; I would review the material test reports if they are available and look closely at the actual chemistry of the base metal. Look to verify the sulfur and phosphorus content when summed is <0.04%. Both elements are bad actors. There are other elements to consider, i.e., copper for one. Any element that has a melting point below 2000°F is suspect.

The welds may have been preheated, but box columns usually employ thick sections that should be considered highly restrained. As such, higher preheat, that is, higher than that listed in Clause 3, should be employed. I recommend calculating preheat using the alternative offered in the Annex of AWS D1.1 and go with the condition of high restraint. Usually the need for high preheat is associated as a means of mitigating the potential for delayed cold cracking, but slow cooling mitigates the formation of a hard brittle microstructure. That's usually a benefit regardless of the potential for hydrogen assisted cracking.

Magnetic particle testing using wet fluorescent magnetic particles can be used and will provide a high level of sensitivity to surface breaking cracks that may not be easily seen with the naked eye.

I see no need for stop drilling as it will only add to the difficulty of repairing the cracks. I would initiate the excavations no less than 50 mm beyond the crack tip as indicated by magnetic particle testing. Stop the excavation about mid length of the crack and then excavate beginning no less than 50 mm from the opposite crack tip. Alternate from end to end and excavate to the depth necessary to completely remove the crack. More than likely the cracks will extend to the joint root. If the cracks are intermittent and are separated by less than 200 mm, it would be best to consider the crack to be continuous and remove the affected welds including the length between the short  intermittent cracks.

Interesting case and great photographs.

Best regards - Al
Parent - - By Hanif khodayari (*) Date 12-21-2017 15:32
Hello Dear
Thank you for your complete explanation.
About width-to-depth, what is your idea about surface tension stress during and after solidification?
It was a good point about high restraint and I will consider Annex H.
We are testing with MT fluorescent and a lot of cracks are detecting such as micro and centerline type.
When any crack was found, the entire weld metal and 50 mm beyond the both crack tips are removed.
Yes, actually we have considered intermittent cracks less than 20 mm as a continuous crack.
Sincerely - Hanif
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 12-21-2017 19:27
Did you check the CMTRs and specifically look to see what percentage of LMPCs there was? I suspect there in lies the problem.

Who supplied the steel and did it conform to the specifications? I would be interested to know what the composition was suppose to be versus what the composition really was.

The weld during solidification can not sustain any force and simply accommodates any shrinkage by plastic flow. Once solidified, the steel has very little strength, but it does have good ductility until it cools to about 1400 degrees F. At about 800 degrees F, it has about 50% of the room temperature tensile and yield strength. However, certain steels can experience brittleness as it passes through certain temperature ranges as it cools. Blue brittleness as it is called usually appears in carbon steels with a carbon content of 0.3% or higher. That isn't to say steels with lower carbon content, but high carbon equivalencies cannot experience similar problems.

I discovered the problem when bending welder qualification coupons. If the samples were not allowed to cool to room temperature or at least to a temperature low enough they could be held comfortably in my hand, they had a tendency to fracture during the bend test. Lesson learned from experimentation; don't rush the bend tests and tensile tests. Let the bend specimens cool to ambient before bending and allow the tensiles to "age" to allow the nacent hydrogen to escape and eliminate "Fisheyes."

Sorry, off subject.

Al
Parent - - By kcd616 (***) Date 12-22-2017 01:17
Al,
how about post heat and slower cooling
i.e. sand or cat litter?
just my thoughts
am I wrong here?
sincerely,
Kent
Parent - - By 803056 (*****) Date 12-22-2017 04:59
Slow cooling promotes the solute rejection issue. The solidification initiates toward the outer edges and progresses toward the centerline of the weld. The LMPCs remain in the liquid phase of the weld as it solidifies. They tend to be pushed toward the centerline of the weld which remains liquid while the weld bead toward the outer edges is solidifying.

Welding is a balance between the pros and cons. Hopefully the pros outweigh the cons. In this case, fast cooling prevents the solute rejection, but promotes undesirable microstructure. High preheat prevents the formation of undesirable microstructures, but can promote solute rejection. The secret is to control the chemistry to minimize the LMPC and reduce the carbon equivalency.

Merry Christmas everyone!

Al
Parent - By kcd616 (***) Date 12-22-2017 05:42
Al,
we may look to pre heat,post heat and slow cooling in sand
this would work for for most ferrous metals
key thing is pre heat and post heat temperature which is well known for metals and  the internet
and every good metallurgy book
sincerely,
Kent
Parent - - By jwright650 (*****) Date 12-22-2017 11:52
Al,
In this case... would you suggest faster travel speeds and smaller beads? Rather than one 25mm x 15mm pass, several fast stringers to achieve the weld size required?
Parent - By kcd616 (***) Date 12-22-2017 12:46
John,
agreed
sincerely,
Kent
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 12-22-2017 16:34
Probably, if I knew the LMPC are in fact the culprit.

Al
Parent - By TimGary (****) Date 12-22-2017 12:50
Great info Al.
Thanks
- - By 803056 (*****) Date 12-22-2017 15:49
I cannot say with any certainty what the root cause of the problem was. If the base metal had the chemistry required by the material specification the carbon equivalency should have been relatively low, thus an undesirable microstructure should be mitigated. If the proper preheat was used, slow cooling should have been assured and again, an undesirable microstructure should have been avoided. We have no means of ensure the condition noted were met. That is, what level of QC was instituted and provided by the contractor during fabrication?  We don’t know and have no way of assessing.

Well, that is not entirely true. The contractor or the owner can perform some metallurgical examinations to determine exactly what the product chemistry is and whether there is evidence of martensite in the HAZ and weld. However, I go back to my original assessment; the HAZ is the region most likely to experience rapid cooling and most likely to contain martensite if the chemistry was off or if insufficient preheat and interpass temperature was maintained. I suspect that the welder training at that facility was no better and no worse than what we find in many of our local contractor’s facility. Many welders associate the moisture observed on the surface of the steel during initial preheating to be the physical evidence they are successful in driving moisture out of the steel. Once the moisture is eliminated, additional preheating or the maintenance of interpass temperature is unnecessary. That is a fallacy many of us have had to contend with on more than one or two occasions.

If my supposition is correct, the weld is unlikely to be hard or to contain martensite. Thus, the weld is not the region I would expect to see cracking issues. The chemistry of the weld filler metal is such that it is unlikely to contain martensite if even marginal preheat was used.

Eliminating the probability of martensite in either the HAZ or weld deposit leaves me with two alternatives; the first being residual stress and the second is chemistry that does not meet the limitations of the base metal specification. The issue of residual stress can lead to cracking, but it is usually associated with highly restrained joints or intersecting welds. There was no mention of intersecting welds in this post, so I am not considering it to be a factor. The residual stresses in the transverse direction relative to the axis of the weld are on the order of the yield strength of the base metal or weld. However, weld filler metal is formulated to provide sufficient ductility to accommodate both shrinkage and contraction of the weld as it solidifies and cools to ambient temperature. The steel in this case is not a high strength steel with a high carbon equivalency, thus the residual stress transverse to the weld should not be cause for alarm. The aspect ration of weld face versus penetration were on the order of 2/1, so again, centerline cracking should not be an issue because of an undesirable aspect ratio.

That leaves me with base metal chemistry. If the base metal chemistry was a little out of spec., i.e., the quantity of LMPC was on the high side, their cumulative effect could result in a condition where the solute rejection phenomena could have produced the intermittent center line cracks exhibited by the photographs provided. It should be a relatively simple matter to secure a sample of the base metal for chemical analysis. The investigator would have to provide direction to the laboratory as to which elements to test for. Most laboratories will report those five or six elements that are most prominent. In this case, we are most interested in determining the quantity of LMPC present, some of which would not be reported in a typical chemical analysis.

Mind you, this is purely speculation on my part. I am trying to eliminate the causes that can be easily discounted and leave the less obvious causes as avenues for further investigation. There are still questions in my mind. One question looms large; when did these cracks form? Another question; what examinations were performed and by who? Was the visual examination thorough as dictated by the code or was it cursory or worst, random? How many times do we see visual examinations that are at best cursory or simply not performed by the contractor? Instead, it is left to the welder to “self inspect”.

Merry Christmas everyone.

Al
Parent - - By kcd616 (***) Date 12-24-2017 01:10 Edited 12-24-2017 01:14
Al,
it is left to the welder to “self inspect”.
DAMN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
if the welder is Kent, we have NO problem:wink::twisted::roll::evil::eek:
but no one is that good:razz::eek::wink:
so now we go to chemistry
I think we need to know the material
and filler metal
now to physics
what fixtures are used and the tolerance?
then we work from there
just my thoughts
sincerely,
Kent
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays
Parent - By 803056 (*****) Date 12-24-2017 20:07
There are many questions to be asked and many answers to be considered before a conclusion can be formulated.

Merry Christmas!

Al
Up Topic Welding Industry / Technical Discussions / Hydrogen Cracking in Box Columns

Powered by mwForum 2.29.2 © 1999-2013 Markus Wichitill