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Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / welding open root
- - By COLBYNEIBERT Date 05-23-2003 20:05
im having a problem welding open root on 3/8 plates even with 1/8 land and 1/8 gap the keyhole still opens up too much for me when welding 1/8 6010 ive tried lowering the amps to 70amps and that dont even help does anyone have any suggestions on how to control the keyhole?
Parent - By DavidP66 (*) Date 05-23-2003 20:46
well..there are a few things you can try..you just have to try them and find the one that works best for you...

if allowable...try tacking the plates closer... 1/16-3/32 root hole...

making a bigger land

as well as..adjusting amps...that rod should be able to go down to 62-65 amps minimum..depending on your machine.

keep the rod stuffed in the keyhole..when you see the root start to fuse move along...

youll find the happy medium that works best for you...thats what i struggled on most....getting a good root...the rest was a breeze for me...

i remember one time..i was in a class welding the same plate as you are...in the overhead...i took me 4 days to get the root right...and the filler and cover pass...was simple..
Parent - By welder_guy2001 (***) Date 05-24-2003 03:58
if you can actually see how big the keyhole is then you're not pushing the rod in far enough. you shouldn't be able to see anything except a tiny bit of light from the arc from underneath the plates. it kinda looks like a solar eclipse. the easiest way to learn how to do a root is to watch somebody who knows how to do it. copy everything they do...where they hold the electrode, how fast they move, amperage setting, etc until you get it.
Parent - By Seldom (**) Date 05-24-2003 23:03
Yes there’s several things that I’ve experienced and are proven that can help you.
1. Keep your 1/8” land but tighten up a little on your root opening, maybe to 3/32”.

2. Increase your travel speed. I know this is difficult for a new welder to do but moving faster cuts down on preheating time, which instigates and facilitates key holing.

3. There are two very common and related scenarios that induce unwanted preheating. The first is what Welder_guy2001 mentioned. You could be long arcing the joint, which will tend to preheat the base metal ahead of you. This is very common with new welders or welder trainees because they want to “see” the arc. To avoid this simply keep a tight arc. Many veteran welders will actually not see any arc outside of the pipe or plate at all and the electrode can even have a bend to it from the pressure the welder is applying.

4. The second common and related scenario to the one above has to do with electrode angle, especially when welding a joint in the vertical position. Too much angle (elbow down) will promote intensive preheating of the base material ahead of the arc and cause undue and unwanted key holing. I’ve observed many welders start a vertical weld with a nice, slightly angled upward electrode angle but as they travel up the joint the base material gets preheated hotter and hotter, the electrode gets shorter, their elbow droops, all the while they’re trying to see the arc and what happens? They lose some control and start key holing then they make it worse by trying to fill it in. While they’re trying to fill the keyhole in, it keeps getting bigger! It gets bigger because of the heating of the base material that they generate while trying to fill the keyhole!

I’d like to suggest to you that when this key-holing scenario starts to get out of hand and you find yourself as I’ve described, break your arc and stop welding! Re-strike your arc about an inch ahead of your keyhole and proceed to weld the joint. If it happens again, stop again as I’ve recommended. Regardless of how many times you have to do this matters only in the fact that you haven’t yet found the problem. In the interim, just go back and feather those starts and stops and make short root passes. I’ve used this technique extensively with root openings and lands that were far from uniform in addition to limited accessibility and have always met the radiographic acceptance criteria of the ASME codes I worked to.

Above all, I would suggest being attentive to your welding conditions and think about how your technique actually facilitates a change in conditions by how you apply the technique. When you start to understand these interrelations, you’ll be ahead of the game and turn what seems as negatives now into methods to enhance your abilities and quality of your weld.

Good luck

Oops, there was a point/tip I forgot to make in my previous reply and it's a little abstract.
Think of the end of your electrode as a torch or even a flashlight! That’s right a flashlight! Wherever you point it, straight in, angled back (yes I meant angled back), or angled ahead, you will be either increasing the amount of light (preheating effect) on the base material or decreasing the amount depending on the direction of travel and where the electrode is pointed similar to the beam of a flashlight. So if you’re preheating too much (causing key holing), don’t direct (angle) the electrode so much in that direction. Decrease the angle!

I hope you find this clearer then mud! LOL

Parent - By medicinehawk01 (**) Date 05-25-2003 03:40
I agree with the guys who say use a 3/32" root opening and I recommend a 3/32" land. One of the things new weldors have a tough time with is judging heat. For the root with 1/8" E6010 it is suggested to use 75-85 amps DCRP. With newer machines with digital displays.....it is pretty accurate, but at my shop some of the machines are so old, you cannot hardly read the dial for your amperage settings. If you are using an "8-pack" machine (used alot in field fabrication), the settings for amperage are hardly accurate (i.e setting the bank to 80 amps doesn't necessarily output 80 amps). So what do we do??????

Try this: take a piece of 3/8" plate, set your amperage so you can run a decent vertical bead with 3/32"- E7018 (most of my students can run 7018 easier than 6010). Once this is done, you should be able to use this amperage setting for 1/8" E6010 electrodes. For an experienced weldor, this is the correct setting, but for a newer weldor (who tends to burn the rod at a slower travel speed as one reply mentioned) it may "seem" too hot. If that is the case, then from this amerage setting, they can turn the heat down a tad (5-10 amps) therefore allowing the student to use their slower travel speed with better success.

Another point in reference to rod angle and I have found to be a good general rule of thumb is: "The more you lean the rod in the direction of travel---the hotter you are." Consequently: "The more you lean the rod away from the direction of travel---the cooler the effects of the rod are." I have been welding in the field for a long time and if the machine I am using is 3 or 4 stories below me it's really a pain in the butt to keep running up and down those stairs to keep adjusting the amp settings not to mention, none productive so this has helped me out alot. To me, you are better off running higher heat and manipulating the rod angle to get the results you want then running too cold which doesn't give a weldor a chance to get good results.

There is a saying: More Heat. More Rod. More Money.
This means:The hotter you can weld, the more rods you'll burn, the more money you'll make because you are being productive and people notice that, especially bosses.

When one of my students opens up big keyholes, I tell them to stop immediately and come get me. I'll observe what they are doing (as they weld). Things I look for: Joint preparation , not enough land or too big a gap or mismatch (plates not parallel to each other).
Too much heat.
Improper rod angle (leaning too far in the direction of travel.
Travel speed too slow.
Long arcing (you get penetration, but you deposit brittle weld metal or you have a monster keyhole).
Eventually as they get more booth time, things start to click and I will always point out success in a weld even if there is only 1" of good weld in 12" of a joint this is proof that they can weld. They just need to remember what happened when they did it right.

I hope this helps you out, but by all means take in all the advice you can. Use what works, disregard that which doesn't. This board seems to have alot of professional who know their stuff and the information is relevant. Have at it!
Up Topic Welding Industry / General Welding Discussion / welding open root

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